Toronto Blue Jays 2017 regular season thread

[JTech780]

This has to be one of the most frustrating teams to watch, even on their playoff runs the last two years. To me this team hasn't been very good the last couple of years, but have benefited from the AL East being just as bad or worse than the Jays, now the rest of the East has caught up and the Jays are falling behind.

It seems like this team is playing the same level of baseball that got them to the ALCS, just that that level isn't good enough anymore. I don't think this team has gotten worse the rest of the team's have gotten better.

This offense is way too easy to pitch to. They don't adjust to what the pitchers are trying to do to them and use the whole field, they just keep trying to pull everything and keep going up there with homerun or nothing swings.

This team needs a rebuild, but I don't think it's coming. Teams have been calling on Happ, but the Jays don't want to trade him as they plan or competing next year. Hopefully that's a negotiation tactic to get more out of clubs calling for Happ, because this is a good year to sell on pitching as there isn't much out there and guys like Estrada and Liriano aren't helping their trade value. May as well sell high on Happ and Smoak for that matter.

[Dan02]

2 years ago this was a completely different team, they put the ball on smash on a routine basis. They scored 5.5 runs per game that season the Yankees were second at 4.7 and to put that in perspective, 28th in runs scored was as close to number 2 as number 2 was to number one. They had a positive run differential of 1.4, the next best team was 0.8

Last season and this one though, yikes.

[Inferno]

I agree that the rest of the division has gotten better but the team has definitely gotten worse. The amount of games they've blown due to one bad inning is ridiculous.

[cross16]

I get the idea the Jays aren't that much worse, but that to me speaks to depth. Pretty well known that the Jays have been shallow for quite a while now but last 2 years they avoided major injuries. Injuries have been a mess this year and it's exposed their lack of depth which is why I think they are struggling so much this year. There is just no depth for guys to pick up the slack while guys like Donaldson or Sanchez find their grove coming back form injury and the fact that they keep getting older doesn't help either. Guys like Tulo and Estrada falling off the map isn't something the Jays can afford with such little depth.

the rebuild was coming no matter what so i'm not sure this year changes that. the tricky thing with the Jays is Donaldson, everything else is pretty straightforward. Sure you sell your pending FA but you aren't going to get anything for them so if you want to "rebuild" you need to start talking about trading guys like Donaldson and maybe even guys like Pillar, Stroman etc. Donaldson may make that decision for him if he doesn't want to stick around through an obvious rebuild.

[cross16]

edit - sorry double post.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by jayswin

What's really hurting about Jays management decided to suck one more year out of this core is that almost every tradable asset is quickly losing value from last off season to the coming one.

Very frustrating.

You make it sound like this team had routinely been in playoff contention for like 5 years leading up to this season.

They missed the playoffs for 22 straight seasons before AA saw a new President coming in and put his chips on the table to go for broke in 2015.

They went on a strong run and were a couple of questionable calls in game 6 away from pushing the eventual World Series Champs to 7 games.

They brought back a lot of that core less David Price for last year and were leading the Division at the deadline last year while filling their building every night?

You think that team is going to up and trade off all their better players in that position? Give me a fata'ing break.

Even with the second half struggles they still made the LCS last year.

So in the off season the guys with good trade value are basically the same guys they still have today. Donaldson, Sanchez, Osuna. In fact I'd argue Marcus Stroman has increased his a lot so far this year vs. last year. Bautista may actually have more value with his current contract than he did last year. Morales would have some value too, probably more than EE due to the lower dollar figure on his deal. Guys like Martin and Tulowitzki were always going to be very hard to trade later on given the money they were owed, their respective ages. I don't think either guy is worth less today than they would have been in the winter.

Guys like Haap and Estrada maybe had some value, but it wouldn't be anything abnormal.

Jays knew they had an aged lineup, and took a chance to try for another season knowing that they don't have the right now guys ready to step in. They now have a clear picture about getting younger, and they can start making the moves they need to try and do this. It's probably a 3-4 year process for them to start building this back up if not longer.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

You make it sound like this team had routinely been in playoff contention for like 5 years leading up to this season.

They missed the playoffs for 22 straight seasons before AA saw a new President coming in and put his chips on the table to go for broke in 2015.

They went on a strong run and were a couple of questionable calls in game 6 away from pushing the eventual World Series Champs to 7 games.

They brought back a lot of that core less David Price for last year and were leading the Division at the deadline last year while filling their building every night?

You think that team is going to up and trade off all their better players in that position? Give me a fata'ing break.

Even with the second half struggles they still made the LCS last year.

So in the off season the guys with good trade value are basically the same guys they still have today. Donaldson, Sanchez, Osuna. In fact I'd argue Marcus Stroman has increased his a lot so far this year vs. last year. Bautista may actually have more value with his current contract than he did last year. Morales would have some value too, probably more than EE due to the lower dollar figure on his deal. Guys like Martin and Tulowitzki were always going to be very hard to trade later on given the money they were owed, their respective ages. I don't think either guy is worth less today than they would have been in the winter.

Guys like Haap and Estrada maybe had some value, but it wouldn't be anything abnormal.

Jays knew they had an aged lineup, and took a chance to try for another season knowing that they don't have the right now guys ready to step in. They now have a clear picture about getting younger, and they can start making the moves they need to try and do this. It's probably a 3-4 year process for them to start building this back up if not longer.

Pretty spot on evaluation in my opinion. I think the 3-4 year process is pretty generous though, and it what makes it worse is the Red Sox and Yankees are back at the top for the next decade as they have the young players in place now and have an unlimited budget to supplement them.

That's what frustrates me the most though. The Jays and their management were well aware of their window, and they only went half ass into it. The budget should have went out the window last year and this year, even if it meant reducing future budgets to pay for it. They owed that to their fans. Pocketing every last dollar the profits over the past 3 years does not sit well with me given the limited window we had.

[Jason14h]

If the Jays were serious about a rebuild, they would move Donaldson, Smoak, Stroman, Happ, Bautista if anyone wants, and maybe Pillar for maximum assets.

In the off-season sign a few high priced relievers for 2 year deals and deal at deadline if way out.

This could easily cut the rebuild to 2 years + this year 2nd half. At this point you have no $$ on the books and can bring in a few stars to compliment the new kids.

The problem is they want to re-tool on the fly, which is impossible with the young powerhouses of Houston, Boston, and NYY coming or already here.

All in or All out. No half asses attempts either way.

[bluejays]

Guys, hate to break it to you all, but Pillar isn't on the untradeable list. He's one of the first guys, if given the chance, that I would move. His bat doesn't do much in the playoffs, and his fielding, though great, doesn't get him on base.

Guys who are at their peak who should be dealt in the next year are Donaldson, Pillar, Happ, Estrada and Morales.

Bautista won't get substantial value as he'd be seen as a rental given his two way opt out clause (if he'd even accept a trade).

Tulo needs to show promise before the Jays should deal him. They'd be selling at a low and to me, the second he'd be dealt he'd probably do better. I'd hold until next season to deal him hoping that he'd turn it around and provide trade value.

The core for the future may be Stroman, Sanchez, Osuna, Smoak, and maybe Travis (the later of the two maybe not). Martin I'd keep to help develop pitchers which to me is hugely valuable.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by fleury

The core for the future may be Stroman, Sanchez, Osuna, Smoak, and maybe Travis (the later of the two maybe not). Martin I'd keep to help develop pitchers which to me is hugely valuable.

Smoak should not be included in the Jays core. He likely won't be any better or as good as he is this year. Jays should sell high on Smoak because his value will probably never be any better than it is now..

[Sylvanfan]

The thing is, you're not going to get a lot for Smoak. I could see a team maybe giving up their 20th best prospect at best for him. Similar with Pillar. These are guys who maybe help a team trying to get to the second wild card, or win a weaker Division, but they're pretty much depth guys on those teams.

Maybe in the offeseason a guy like Pillar has some interest, but again, you won't get a lot for him.

[TheAlpineOracle]

The only players the Jays have a of current value on their major league roster are Osuna, Stroman, Sanchez, Donaldson, maybe Morales. They aren't trading the first three, I can't see them moving Donaldson as I don't think Rogers is willing to accept the fan backlash, and I don't know if you'd get all that much for Morales so I don't know if he's really worth moving when he comes back for two more years at a pretty reasonable price tag.

I honestly don't think the Jays do anything this year. Make it look like they are trying again next year with what they have left, and ultimately move Donaldson next year because it's a lot more palatable as the bandwagon will have likely subsided, and a second year of poor team performance makes it easier to swallow.

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

The thing is, you're not going to get a lot for Smoak. I could see a team maybe giving up their 20th best prospect at best for him. Similar with Pillar. These are guys who maybe help a team trying to get to the second wild card, or win a weaker Division, but they're pretty much depth guys on those teams.

Maybe in the offeseason a guy like Pillar has some interest, but again, you won't get a lot for him.

Smoak just went to an all-star game, I think you might be underselling him a little bit as a depth guy. If you have a need at 1B or DH, he is the type of guy to fill in and is controllable at a really nice number next year as well.

One thing Smoak has going for him is that he always had high expectations for his performance since he was drafted. So this can also be spun as "living up to his potential" or "he is just figuring it out" instead of just a "flash in the pan".

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

Smoak just went to an all-star game, I think you might be underselling him a little bit as a depth guy. If you have a need at 1B or DH, he is the type of guy to fill in and is controllable at a really nice number next year as well.

One thing Smoak has going for him is that he always had high expectations for his performance since he was drafted. So this can also be spun as "living up to his potential" or "he is just figuring it out" instead of just a "flash in the pan".

There's no way the Jays get anything of any value for Smoak. Half a season doesn't erase a decade of suck. You may get a B grade prospect at the deadline if someone needs a 1st basement. Then it comes down to whether it's worth moving him for a B grade prospect when you have him back next year at a cheap dollar figure and if he actually keep this up you may get something more valuable at the next deadline.

We'd all like them to sell, but Rigers isn't going to tank this cash cow until they are fully required to and we haven't hit That point yet. That's next year. They probably already have Smoak figured in to be a face of the team once Bautista finally leaves us.

[BOSSY]

Un-f'ing real!

[You Need a Thneed]

Bolsinger ties MLB record with 4 strikeouts in the 13th inning.

[mrkajz44]

I can't believe how long that game was. I DVR'd the game and somehow caught up at around 10:30pm, despite starting it about 2.5 hours after the game was supposed to start. Ended up going to bed before it was actually over.

The broadcast was a bit painful to listen to as well. Buck and Dan continually gushed about the Red Sox - it was just off putting. I know you don't want the announcers to be total homers, but this was too much. I also didn't think that play by Pedroia for the double play was that amazing. The ball was hit right at him, the only real play was the tag out and throw to first. I just found it annoying that the crew fawned over that play when it just seemed like the obvious one.

[Machiavelli]

That was a sweet backhanded grab by Happ

[Karl]

[habernac]

Liriano didn't even get out of the 2nd, but they're up 6-3