Your post that I quoted dealt directly with muzzle velocity and your concern that "assault style weapons" had a high muzzle velocity.
...
9mm rounds can go into the 1,350fps range for +P loads. 9mm FMJ rounds are about 1,000fps. If you move into the .454 Casull rounds, its closer to 2,000fps. FN Five-Seven pistols are about 2,800fps at the muzzle
...[More knowledgeable posting about firearms.]
I don't know anything more than Wikipedia can tell me, but you seem like you're knowledgeable about guns and that you really appreciate them for the amazing pieces of engineering that they are. And they're "necessary" -- for military/police forces, hunters...and I'll even grant you that self-defense is a legitimate purpose. But since we're talking civilian ownership and access here, I'm going to say that hunting and self-defense are the applicable ones.
Anything beyond what's necessary for those purposes, though, can't be thought of as anything other than a hobby or an indulgence. That includes everything from target-shooting to "gun appreciation" to whatever else these people do with their over-powered weapons. Sure, you *can* use a semi-auto with a 30-round clip for hunting or home defense, but it's disingenuous to claim that you need one for that reason.
So tell me: do you believe that such rifles are needed in civilian society? Could we not limit civilians to having much less firepower and still allow them to hunt effectively and defend their homes?
I'm not asking if you agree they should be more heavily restricted. I'm asking if you think these things (let's say, 30-round semi-auto rifle) are actually a necessary part of civilian life. It's fair for you to say they're not necessary but still resist further control.*
[Edit*] I did that exact thing in the "drones" thread. Nobody *needs* a recreational drone, and obviously they can be hazardous to planes if misused, but I'm totally pissed at the restrictions put around flying them in Canada. I'm flying a toy in my backyard!
Last edited by Cube Inmate; 02-27-2018 at 10:35 PM.
Your post that I quoted dealt directly with muzzle velocity and your concern that "assault style weapons" had a high muzzle velocity.
9mm rounds can go into the 1,350fps range for +P loads. 9mm FMJ rounds are about 1,000fps. If you move into the .454 Casull rounds, its closer to 2,000fps. FN Five-Seven pistols are about 2,800fps at the muzzle
Internal damage is more tied to round type than muzzle velocity. FMJ rounds create small wound channels and are not typically legal to hunt with (furbearers are the exception I believe). They will bounce around more if they hit bone though. Usually you hunt with soft point/frangible rounds so you don't get over-penetration and nothing to bounce around and ruin meat.
I know nothing about guns and never want to, but if you need Corsi and Fenwick
Like stats to make your point your not helping the cause.
Only soldiers need weapons of war,not John.Q.Public. If you want to try them on a range that's fine but you don't need one for every day possession.
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I'm just waiting for the inevitable home defense job where a guy pulls out his rifle, to shoot a burgler, lets him have it and the rounds travel out of his house and kill a couple of his neighbors.
I've always said that the last thing that anyone needs for home defense is a gun.
First of all, for all you know that creeping sound coming up the stairs is your daughter getting home from the bar. Of course its dark, your heart rate is going 6 million beats per second so you fire a warning shot below her head.
Chances are in a house, the bad guy is going to see you before you see him. So you're probably going to die and give him another gun.
People forget that bullets don't just stop, they travel a good distance, especially rifle rounds, and once they leave your control, they could hit someone in the street, or your neighbors house. Or whatever.
Guns create a falls sense of bravery. Why the frack are you moving towards trouble. Oh yeah, because you have a gun.
You know what the best weapon in the world is?
A telephone. No really a phone next to your bed.
You know what the other best weapon is. Space. Moving away from the noise instead of towards it
Guns for home defense are silly.
Large capacity magazines are stupid.
If you want to allow people home defense weapons, then outlaw guns and allow people to buy pepper guns, or bean bag guns. Because at least if you make a mistake, its not lethal.
Heck even tasers are more fun because if you shoot an intruder they poop their pants. If you shoot your daughter by mistake because she's coming home from the bar, she'll probably learn her lesson and not be dead.
And do we really need gun ownership for target shooting hobbyists. Wouldn't it make sense to be able to go to a gun range and rent any exotic weapon that you want?
And for hunters. Is it that much of a challenge to use super optics and a 30 round clip.
Go hunting with an iron site and a single shot, I guarantee you that its a different experience.
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I'm just waiting for the inevitable home defense job where a guy pulls out his rifle, to shoot a burgler, lets him have it and the rounds travel out of his house and kill a couple of his neighbors.
I've always said that the last thing that anyone needs for home defense is a gun.
First of all, for all you know that creeping sound coming up the stairs is your daughter getting home from the bar. Of course its dark, your heart rate is going 6 million beats per second so you fire a warning shot below her head.
Chances are in a house, the bad guy is going to see you before you see him. So you're probably going to die and give him another gun.
People forget that bullets don't just stop, they travel a good distance, especially rifle rounds, and once they leave your control, they could hit someone in the street, or your neighbors house. Or whatever.
Guns create a falls sense of bravery. Why the frack are you moving towards trouble. Oh yeah, because you have a gun.
You know what the best weapon in the world is?
A telephone. No really a phone next to your bed.
You know what the other best weapon is. Space. Moving away from the noise instead of towards it
Guns for home defense are silly.
Large capacity magazines are stupid.
If you want to allow people home defense weapons, then outlaw guns and allow people to buy pepper guns, or bean bag guns. Because at least if you make a mistake, its not lethal.
Heck even tasers are more fun because if you shoot an intruder they poop their pants. If you shoot your daughter by mistake because she's coming home from the bar, she'll probably learn her lesson and not be dead.
And do we really need gun ownership for target shooting hobbyists. Wouldn't it make sense to be able to go to a gun range and rent any exotic weapon that you want?
And for hunters. Is it that much of a challenge to use super optics and a 30 round clip.
Go hunting with an iron site and a single shot, I guarantee you that its a different experience.
assuming I had to have a gun to defend myself, and in 30 odd years of living with, supervising or generally dealing with gangsters murderers and the like I've never needed a gun yet, but just on the off chance I retired to Honduras or downtown Juarez Mexico I would have a shotgun and then, if I heard someone creeping about, fire it into the floor.
Why anyone thinks its neccersary to kill someone to defend themselves escapes me, you just need to scare them off.
Because 'Murica is rooted in a strong revenge fantasy exacerbated by the need to prove how big your peepee is.
So, if you let an intruder off with a warning shot and let them get away, obviously they will be so prideful as to hold a long-term grudge (because you would, right?) and come back at a later date to murder your family. Best shoot the bugger where he stands and get to be a big man in the process.
Dick's Sporting Goods, one of the largest sports retailers in the U.S., has announced it is immediately ending its sales of assault-style rifles and requiring all customers to be older than 21 to buy a firearm at its stores.
Additionally, the company will no longer sell high capacity magazines.
CEO Ed Stack announced the decision Wednesday on ABC's Good Morning America. He said the decision was inspired partly by the revelation that the 19-year-old Parkland high school shooter purchased a weapon at a Dick's store. Stack said the particular firearm — a shotgun — was not used in the shooting, but he added that this did not lessen the impact the revelation had on them.
"We did everything by the book. We did everything that the law required, and still he was able to buy a gun. And when we looked at that, we said the systems that are in place across the board just aren't effective enough to keep us from selling a gun like that," Stack said.
Quote:
The company, which operates more than 715 locations, is one of the largest chain retailers of firearms in the U.S. Dick's Sporting Goods had already pulled assault-style rifles from Dick's stores after the Sandy Hook shooting; now it will also stop selling the weapons at subsidiary Field & Stream stores.
Stack said the decision to eliminate assault-style rifles is permanent.
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If you’re so concerned about the speed at which a bullet travels, you’re going to have to start by banning certain calibers, because a .223 round doesn’t care if it’s fired from a black gun with a plastic stock or one with a wood stock.
There are also pistol rounds in the 2500fps range
Get rid of pistol grip rifles and you make them a lot less desirable for these types of events. When you can indiscriminately fire a rifle from the hip it becomes a much easier weapon to reek havoc with. I don't believe you would have very many shooters walking into a school with a long gun and being nearly as effective.
I see this as more important than limiting mag size.
The only time i can think of where a long gun was really deadly was a situation like Mayerthorpe and he was basically sniping. Had he come out into the open to shoot he wouldn't have lasted long.
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I'm just waiting for the inevitable home defense job where a guy pulls out his rifle, to shoot a burgler, lets him have it and the rounds travel out of his house and kill a couple of his neighbors.
There's thousands of stories just like this
Quote:
FREDERICK COUNTY, Va. - Many buy guns to protect themselves against crime, but for one father in Frederick County#a split decision to use his gun backfired after he accidentally shot his 16-year-old daughter.
This is awesome to see, some action actually taking place. We need more companies doing the same in the US. That Vice video is great and more people should watch it. The process in Canada just takes so much longer, that has got to be a major reason for less gun violence in Canada.
Anyway, more action is needed to reduce the number of fire arms readily available in the US and hopefully this stand by Dicks can make a dent.
Interesting to see if more companies jump on board to stop supporting companies who promote the NRA and/or fund it.
A week later, the social media firestorm Naparstek ignited has executives at Canada's largest outdoor retailer pondering what to do about Mountain Equipment Co-op's own relationship with Vista — which also owns some of the chain's most popular brands, like CamelBak, Bolle and Bushnell.
"It's a quandary for these companies because frankly Vista Outdoor — this guns and ammunition marketer — seems to have really good taste in biking, running and outdoor brands," Naparstek says from his home in Brooklyn.
"I can imagine that these are popular brands and they want to continue to sell them, but ethically, they have to stop. I can't think of any other way to deal with the fact that when an MEC member comes into a store and buys a CamelBak water bottle, some tiny portion of their purchase is going to funding [the NRA]."
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Last edited by foshizzle11; 02-28-2018 at 08:46 AM.
Reason: Added more info.
American culture is basically infected with a disease. It's in the fiber of their society. It's crazy watching from the outside, but it appears telling someone to give up their guns is no different than telling somebody to give up their religion. Show them proof that their beliefs aren't consistent with reality and they'll just do mental gymnastics to maintain their belief system. Their is also an inbuilt reinforcement of their beliefs from their peers, so they feel extra justified in believing they're right counter to what common sense and the most basic fact checking would prove.
Building on that, it's also not a big surprise that there seems to be a correlation between religiosity and gun nuttiness. Religious people seem to be very proud of their "faith" in things that aren't true, but they believe anyway. They put faith in their indoctrination and praise each other for faithfulness, just like gun nuts do. They don't care about facts, they care about maintaining their faith, since faith has been praised as a virtue even though it shouldn't be.
I don't think this will ever get solved. It's a sick society and there's no cure because religion has too strong a foothold in the USA. When you raise a person from birth to believe facts, logic and reason take a backseat to faith and tradition, you can convince them of all kinds of stupidity that they'll believe with the same fervour in which they believe their religion to be true.
It would be amazing to see an alternate universe where people were free to grow up to age 21 and graduate university free from religious indoctrination. If more Americans opted to not indoctrinate their kids and instead encouraged reason, research, fact checking, etc., the USA would be 10x better off. It'll never happen, though. Dopes gonna dope.
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American culture is basically infected with a disease. It's in the fiber of their society. It's crazy watching from the outside, but it appears telling someone to give up their guns is no different than telling somebody to give up their religion. Show them proof that their beliefs aren't consistent with reality and they'll just do mental gymnastics to maintain their belief system. Their is also an inbuilt reinforcement of their beliefs from their peers, so they feel extra justified in believing they're right counter to what common sense and the most basic fact checking would prove.
Building on that, it's also not a big surprise that there seems to be a correlation between religiosity and gun nuttiness. Religious people seem to be very proud of their "faith" in things that aren't true, but they believe anyway. They put faith in their indoctrination and praise each other for faithfulness, just like gun nuts do. They don't care about facts, they care about maintaining their faith, since faith has been praised as a virtue even though it shouldn't be.
I don't think this will ever get solved. It's a sick society and there's no cure because religion has too strong a foothold in the USA. When you raise a person from birth to believe facts, logic and reason take a backseat to faith and tradition, you can convince them of all kinds of stupidity that they'll believe with the same fervour in which they believe their religion to be true.
It would be amazing to see an alternate universe where people were free to grow up to age 21 and graduate university free from religious indoctrination. If more Americans opted to not indoctrinate their kids and instead encouraged reason, research, fact checking, etc., the USA would be 10x better off. It'll never happen, though. Dopes gonna dope.
This would be an interesting experiment but I'm not sure your conclusion is that certain. There is some stupidity to religion but it has also saved many people. If there was no religion up to age 21 I think it would balance out. The crazy believers might be more open to issues like abortion, homosexuality etc... but others might get into a lot of trouble concerning gangs, drugs and being taught how to be a good person. The church is a community after all and one can't conclude that they're all crazies.
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religion and guns are ways to cling on to the past, the good ole days when America was Great, the 1700's, a couple of hundred years after they figured out the sun does not revolve around the earth, but the opposite.
Ah, some Twitter twits thinking it was on purpose, as if somebody is going to fire a gun in a school and get arrested to prove the point that teachers shouldn't be armed.
Some of the teachers I had over the years were a little off their rockers.
They have the same predisposition to mental health issues as all human beings do, so giving the guns can't make the situation any better.
I'm a little bit uneasy about how mental health issues = school shooter. This is a gun nut talking point that we're all starting to accept as fact. It's definitely a fact that more guns = more shooters, but there is no way to make everyone mentally healthy so it's really really really stupid to promote more access to mental health help as the solution. It's less access to guns that is the only solution.
Also, poor mental health doesn't lead someone to become a shooter, anyway. It may factor in to some of the shootings, but we can't predict who will be a shooter and there is no guarantee we could fix people with that propensity, anyway. And we also can't jail people for having the propensity to be a shooter.
The biggest thing is we shouldn't be stigmatizing people with mental health issues as being prone to becoming shooters. So many people cope with mental health problems and a statistically insignificant amount of them shoot up schools.
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You cannot easily fix what is deeply embedded into society. It took well over a hundred years and a civil war for slavery to be fully abolished, and almost another 100 for African Americans to have similar civil right as the rest of Americans. Heck, half the population, women only received the right to vote in 1919.
Yet the US population still holds dear to the same constitution that was written with slavery concessions and lack of women rights when it comes to bearing arms.
Here is a recent article about child accidental deaths at home and gun safety tips
Think it says anything about removing the source of the problem? Nope it actually discourages recommending removal!
Quote:
Dr. Eliot Nelson, a pediatrician at the University of Vermont Medical Center, wrote an editorial that accompanied the new study in the journal Pediatrics.
Recommending to remove guns completely from a home can be off-putting for parents who might keep guns for hunting or protection, he said.
Quote:
Weiser, the Stanford trauma surgeon, hopes there will be fewer gun-related injuries and deaths among children in the future. He compared gun violence to an earthquake.
"When you build a city in an earthquake zone, you make the buildings as earthquake-proof as possible. You try to build in as much possible safety as you can," Weiser said. "And so, why we can't make safer guns and make safer laws is beyond me."
It's engrained in their psyche. A few children killed at a school is not going to change anything.
