2017/2018 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Boy we'd be in good shape if we didnt have Stajan Bouma or Brouwer.

Depends entirely on what the money was spent on I guess. Atleast two of them are coming off the books soon.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Boy we'd be in good shape if we didnt have Stajan Bouma or Brouwer.

Stajan is a solid playmaking/two-way bottom 6 forward. If he were more of a goal scorer he'd probably even be an option in the top 6 in that Frolik role. His contract is fine, just steep for his role.

Bouma, along with Stajan is off the books in a year and three days.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Stajan is a solid playmaking/two-way bottom 6 forward. If he were more of a goal scorer he'd probably even be an option in the top 6. His contract is fine, just steep for his role.

Bouma, along with Stajan is off the books in a year and three days.

And the difference between what those two make and what Backlund's extension will be should really see net $2M+ in cap space.

[Gaudfather]

What makes this discussion hard is that Stajan and Bouma are both great character guys - but the Flames are now about creating a team that can compete and win, and if your not part of that solution, then your part of the problem.

[MrMike]

What would our cap look like, would we be able to sign Marleau and Thornton to 4 years each for two years? Could we fit that in?

[memphusk]

Thornton and Marleau aren't boyfriend's. Thornton and Burnsy are boyfriend's. At least that is what ESPN is trying to tell me.

[Machiavelli]

Originally Posted by Gaudfather

What makes this discussion hard is that Stajan and Bouma are both great character guys - but the Flames are now about creating a team that can compete and win, and if your not part of that solution, then your part of the problem.

Character is overrated when it comes to sports. It also seems disproportionately valued when it comes to the NHL, compared to other pro leagues.

[memphusk]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Stajan is a solid playmaking/two-way bottom 6 forward. If he were more of a goal scorer he'd probably even be an option in the top 6 in that Frolik role. His contract is fine, just steep for his role.

Bouma, along with Stajan is off the books in a year and three days.

Playmaking? Where is this?

[H2SO4(aq)]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Stajan is a solid playmaking/two-way bottom 6 forward. If he were more of a goal scorer he'd probably even be an option in the top 6 in that Frolik role. His contract is fine, just steep for his role.

Bouma, along with Stajan is off the books in a year and three days.

Stajan gets overrated by flames fans quite a bit i think. He is quite bad imo. I love the character, and i know his story, but I think he is an old overpaid anchor. He doesnt have the wheels or faceoff acumen of a Matt Cullen to keep him relevant.

Bouma.... man i think its injuries that prevent him from playing like he did but he brings nothing.

[Karl]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Stajan gets overrated by flames fans quite a bit i think. He is quite bad imo. I love the character, and i know his story, but I think he is an old overpaid anchor. He doesnt have the wheels or faceoff acumen of a Matt Cullen to keep him relevant.

Bouma.... man i think its injuries that prevent him from playing like he did but he brings nothing.

Bouma is even worse than Stajan. Neither are that good, but Bouma is somewhat worse.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Stajan gets overrated by flames fans quite a bit i think. He is quite bad imo. I love the character, and i know his story, but I think he is an old overpaid anchor. He doesnt have the wheels or faceoff acumen of a Matt Cullen to keep him relevant.

Bouma.... man i think its injuries that prevent him from playing like he did but he brings nothing.

Stajan won 50.1% of his faceoffs last year, second only to Sean Monahan for highest percentage among centres (30+ games, Hamilton was technically higher too).

Stajan's 34.8% offensive zone starts is huge for the team. He's terrific defensively, and Gulutzan, Cameron, and Jerrard know this. Even while being played a ton in the defensive zone, his relative Corsi is pretty good -- just -2.2%. Compared to Bouma (awful) and Brouwer (even worse), he's a terrific player and the ultimate 4th liner.

Fun fact -- Stajan is also one of the team's best PKers. After Backlund and Frolik step off the ice, it's Stajan who goes on with Bouma, and they typically do a terrific job.

(Another fun fact that I found while researching this: apparently, Nick Grossmann's Goals For/60 while shorthanded is 18.5, which I find hilarious, and his relative Corsi while shorthanded is +18.8%. Damn, why'd we let him go?)

[Gaudfather]

According to TSN the belief is that Marleau is looking for a three year deal and Doug Wilson is only willing to go two years. Marleau at 37 has not missed a game in the past eight years - so if anyone was worth a bit of a reach to go three years it is likely Marleau.

[Roof-Daddy]

Ugh, three year deal for a 35+ player is just super risky. There is no getting away from it if it goes south.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by MrMike

What would our cap look like, would we be able to sign Marleau and Thornton to 4 years each for two years? Could we fit that in?

Not without getting clear of Stajan and Bouma's cap hits.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Stajan gets overrated by flames fans quite a bit i think. He is quite bad imo. I love the character, and i know his story, but I think he is an old overpaid anchor. He doesnt have the wheels or faceoff acumen of a Matt Cullen to keep him relevant.

I agree that Matt Cullen is better than Stajan, but you're overselling the gap. Any significant difference in faceoffs can probably be boiled down to a four year stretch under Hartley where wingers didn't support on faceoffs at all (unsurprisingly, Stajan's FO% jumped back up to the 50%+ mark under Gulutzan) I'll even say Cullen has better wheels and goal scoring ability. Regardless, it's not like Stajan's wheels are anything close to a liability, when he has played with faster players who can carry the puck some, like Chiasson, Ferland, Backlund, Frolik, and Bennett, he has performed admirably the last bunch of years. His wheels only become an issue when he's expected to be the Backlund between a Bouma and a Brouwer/Jones... that's on the wingers for being essentially AHL-level, not the center. He also hasn't had much support on defense, as we've consistently had some of the worst bottom defense pairs in the league the last bunch of years.

Anyways, here's a list of centers last year with:
-35% or more of their faceoff starts being defensive zone
-less than 900 5-on-5 minutes
-18 or more 5-on-5 points



That's a short list. And five of those six centers were not by co-incidence on playoff teams. Yes, Stajan is overpaid, we ALL agree on that. But that doesn't mean he's a useless scrub. This is far from the futility we're talking about with the likes of Brouwer or Bouma. It kind of annoys me to see Stajan lumped in with those two. Maybe he's not Cullen but that doesn't mean he is bad. Checking centers who can move the puck forward and still generate some offense have their place, even if that place in today's NHL has moved from the old third lines to the modern fourth line. Even assuming he's the worst on that list (eyeballing those numbers, he seems better than Beagle at the very least) The fifth or sixth-best bottom 6 checking center in the league is hardly a bad player.

[memphusk]

What a player does isn't the full argument. What a player does for his cap hit is. I would take 39 year old Cullen over Stajan. Even better was he had a lower cap hit.

[Caged Great]

I'd easily do 3 years at 4 million per for Marleau.

He is still a very good player and if he performs at the level he did last year, he'll easily be one of the biggest bargains in the league.

He might drop off slightly, but even if he only is a 30 point player in year 3 of that contract, that's still only slightly overpaid. He is not going to vanish, players like him do not just fall off the face of the earth, it's usually just a gradual downward slope.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by H2SO4(aq)

Stajan gets overrated by flames fans quite a bit i think. He is quite bad imo. I love the character, and i know his story, but I think he is an old overpaid anchor. He doesnt have the wheels or faceoff acumen of a Matt Cullen to keep him relevant.

Bouma.... man i think its injuries that prevent him from playing like he did but he brings nothing.

I'm a little puzzled by this. I don't recall anyone here calling him anything but a 4th line center and unless you believe he has 3rd line potential and is being held back I'm not exactly sure how you can overrate him. He's overpaid without a doubt but on a nightly basis he's usually barely in the conversation amongst fans because he quietly goes about his job which is what you want from 4th line players as when they stick out it's usually for the wrong reasons. As overpaid as he is I feel fans criticize him less than say Bouma or Brouwer because the guy is useful in his role, his effort is usually unquestioned, and he's not terrible which is more than you can say for some other players on the roster such as Bouma, Brouwer, Bartkowski, etc.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I'd easily do 3 years at 4 million per for Marleau.

He is still a very good player and if he performs at the level he did last year, he'll easily be one of the biggest bargains in the league.

He might drop off slightly, but even if he only is a 30 point player in year 3 of that contract, that's still only slightly overpaid. He is not going to vanish, players like him do not just fall off the face of the earth, it's usually just a gradual downward slope.

The problem is the Flames cap structure doesn't really allow for a 3 year deal imo. The Flames have a lot of money coming off in 3 years with Brodie, Brouwer, Frolik, and Hamonic. They will likely let the forwards go and keep the D.

In 2 years they only really have Smith expiring along with Tkachuk. There is also a very good chance Bennett is signed to a 2 year bridge deal and he will also be expiring in 2 years. There is no money to pay a goalie, Tkachuk, and possibly Bennett.

Signing Marleau for 2 years would give the Flames extra money to spend that summer on Tkachuk who very easily could be oooking at $6.5M per.

My concern is how unmovable the Brouwer and Marleau deals could be in 2 years and risking the Flames losing a core piece.

Maybe I am just paranoid but I would hold firm at 2 years with Marleau and try and outbid the Sharks. You suggest 3 years $12M I personally would feel more comfortable at 2 years $11M

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by Caged Great

I'd easily do 3 years at 4 million per for Marleau.

He is still a very good player and if he performs at the level he did last year, he'll easily be one of the biggest bargains in the league.

He might drop off slightly, but even if he only is a 30 point player in year 3 of that contract, that's still only slightly overpaid. He is not going to vanish, players like him do not just fall off the face of the earth, it's usually just a gradual downward slope.

I would only do it if you could unload Brouwer.