[GDT] Flames vs Sabres - 5:00 - SNet 360

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

...Hiller has ensured his career is over by utterly failing at his 23 chances. He did that. I'm just suggesting the Flames don't foolishly give him chance number 24 when a young and better skilled kid has been patiently waiting for a legit opportunity.

So long as the Flames are not performing a disservice to Ortio and Backstrom in the process, then no, this decision is not in any way "foolish." What is foolish is to think that Flames management have this same myopic view of things. What is foolish is to insist that this decision is somehow an egregious and irreparable slight to Ortio that will destroy his confidence and future.

Hiller still has a contract to practice, dress and play. I will reiterate: Providing starts for Hiller costs the Flames ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and yet it could very well make a big difference for him in the summer.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Pages and pages of discussion on Hiller vs. Ortio. I'm genuinely shocked that people are so invested in this. I think we have some idea of what Ortio is at this point after several pro seasons. I don't think that if he were to start every game the rest of the way some sort of revelation would come about as to him becoming our starting goaltender. At best, Ortio can be a backup, but he doesn't have the consistency to be a starter in the NHL. It doesn't really solve our problem though.

Perhaps Treliving and co. have already made a decision as to Ortio's future, and don't need any more games of evidence to be more comfortable with their decision. Perhaps they'd like him to backup in the NHL next year. Perhaps they don't even offer him a contract. Either way, there's very little chance he's our starter next year.

This is why they're bothering to give Backstrom some starts here, as neither Hiller nor Ortio could be a starter, but perhaps Backstrom can give us a season or two as a stop gap. Nobody's really seen him play for over a calendar year, so who knows? One thing is for sure, we've seen both Hiller and Ortio a lot more than Backstrom, and we know what those two have to offer...a lot of losses.

I agree with your post, but I have don't agree with the bolded.

He is 24 and still developing - how do we know that he won't develop more consistency?

Why is it that when forwards or defensemen are brought up, that there is a complete understanding and expectation that they will start with sheltered minutes and slowly be developed, but with goalies it's: prove to me that you're the next coming of Vesina or GTFO!"?

Ortio has had mixed results at best so far. But let's be patient and see if he can continue to improve.

Oh, and I completely disagree about Backstrom - I think they know he's done and simply agreed to give him a couple starts to get him to waive.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No, I am saying it is a pointless thing to post. If one more puck bounces off someone's knee and goes in, he has an .880 SP. Doesn't change how he played at all.

To the point though, yes he played well. However, he didn't win and Hartley's rule has generally been win or change.

As I have said several times, I think Hartley is just playing two goalies and Hiller is getting some work (against a bottom feeder team).

I think there is absolutely nothing to see here and I think everyone's angst is unjustified.

And no, Hartly is not going out of his way to not play him - unless you think Ortio should get every start for the rest of the season, which I think is silly.

You suggest save percentage is silly but then suggest wins should be the deciding factor? When the team scored a single goal?

Not that this has actually been Hartley's way to decide a starter. He has been all over the place. First a rotation. Then Ramo getting a string to "get him going." then Hiller getting a similar string. Now it's a minor hockey rotation apparently. There has been almost no consistency in management of the goaltenders.

And I am not suggesting Ortio get every start. I am suggesting that since he played well (which you admit he did) he should get another start. It is almost inexplicable that he isn't. But many will try anyway.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So long as the Flames are not performing a disservice to Ortio and Backstrom in the process, then no, this decision is not in any way "foolish." What is foolish is to think that Flames management have this same myopic view of things. What is foolish is to insist that this decision is somehow an egregious and irreparable slight to Ortio that will destroy his confidence and future.

Hiller still has a contract to practice, dress and play. I will reiterate: Providing starts for Hiller costs the Flames ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and yet it could very well make a big difference for him in the summer.

Out of thanks, but

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So long as the Flames are not performing a disservice to Ortio and Backstrom in the process, then no, this decision is not in any way "foolish." What is foolish is to think that Flames management have this same myopic view of things. What is foolish is to insist that this decision is somehow an egregious and irreparable slight to Ortio that will destroy his confidence and future.

Hiller still has a contract to practice, dress and play. I will reiterate: Rpviding starts for Hiller costs the Flames ABSOLUTELY NOTHING, and yet it could very well make a big difference for him in the summer.

It could make a difference to Ortio in the summer too! Also, let's remember that Ortio has been a member of the Flames organization longer than Hiller! For goalies, most times they're not starting they would likely consider it a disservice. There's only a handful of games left to boot.

How can Trevy have confidence that Ortio can handle 25 games if Ortio has never played 25 games? Also keep in mind your backup might be your starter in the event that your goalie get injured. So how do you know that your backup can handle a 5:1 ratio if he's never played as much?

We're going in circles. You say there's no harm, I'm saying there is. Just agree to disagree.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

You suggest save percentage is silly but then suggest wins should be the deciding factor? When the team scored a single goal?

Not that this has actually been Hartley's way to decide a starter. He has been all over the place. First a rotation. Then Ramo getting a string to "get him going." then Hiller getting a similar string. Now it's a minor hockey rotation apparently. There has been almost no consistency in management of the goaltenders.

And I am not suggesting Ortio get every start. I am suggesting that since he played well (which you admit he did) he should get another start. It is almost inexplicable that he isn't. But many will try anyway.

No I did not suggest that.

I am very confident that he will, in fact get another start.

What is bizarre is how upset people are that he isn't getting THIS start. There are 18 more games after tonight.

[Torchdemall]

Originally Posted by Petert

You are delusional if you still don't think Hartley needs to be gone.

BTW, #### Hiller.
Totally skipping this game, Hiller simply makes me too mad for something I should be enjoying.

I'm not a big fan of Hiller either, but I won't skip any game my life doesn't require me to because there are more players on the ice then just him.

Really looking forward to seeing Sam, Johnny and Frolik playing together, and even the other line combinations. Hopefully the Defense puts a bunch of guys on their a$$es and plays solid.

GFG! 4-3 for the Flames! Hiller keeps it under 4! (Baby steps!)

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

...Perhaps Treliving and co. have already made a decision as to Ortio's future, and don't need any more games of evidence to be more comfortable with their decision. Perhaps they'd like him to backup in the NHL next year. Perhaps they don't even offer him a contract. Either way, there's very little chance he's our starter next year.

I would be surprised if there was anyone who thought that Ortio will be the Flames starter next season, but I think there is still some thought that he could become a NHL starter eventually. He is still only 24-years-old, and I think chances are extremely low that he will not sign an RFA extension to remain with the Flames next year. He may only every pan out as an AHL goalie, or a NHL backup, but the Flames are surely smart enough to see that there is still valuable time to continue to develop and evaluate this player.

This is why they're bothering to give Backstrom some starts here, as neither Hiller nor Ortio could be a starter, but perhaps Backstrom can give us a season or two as a stop gap. Nobody's really seen him play for over a calendar year, so who knows? One thing is for sure, we've seen both Hiller and Ortio a lot more than Backstrom, and we know what those two have to offer...a lot of losses.

No. Backstrom is only getting starts in Calgary in an effort to increase the possibility that he might get another NHL contract this summer, but it will not be with the Flames. This is a condition of his decision to waive his NTC to join the Flames in the first place.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I think there is absolutely nothing to see here and I think everyone's angst is unjustified.

Everyone's angst is justified. It's the only thing that passes for passion anymore. That's what this season has come to.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No I did not suggest that.

I am very confident that he will, in fact get another start.

What is bizarre is how upset people are that he isn't getting THIS start. There are 18 more games after tonight.

It's not puzzling because it isn't just one game. It's one more pebble in a large pile of puzzling decisions from the coaching staff and it puts an explanation mark on the inconsistent goalie management all season.

I don't even like Ortio. I think he drops too easy, struggles in a crowd, loses the puck routinely, and has a tendency to get flustered. I also think he lacks the "clutch" that great NHL goalies have and it partly explains his inability to consistently get wins at any level.

But he is the only goalie playing with any chance of being with us beyond this season and I don't like how ineffective the Flames development of him has been this season.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Hiller is a pro. Backstrom is a pro. Management isn't going to bench these guys for the rest of the season even though YOU might want them to.

If you look at all the remaining games this season this is a good game to play our backup. Certainly much better to play Hiller this game then against the Pens on Sat.

Treliving has already gone on record saying they are going to give Ortio the bulk of the starts. So I don't know why anybody can be unhappy with this.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

It could make a difference to Ortio in the summer too!

Which is why Ortio will continue to get plenty of starts down the stretch.

Also, let's remember that Ortio has been a member of the Flames organization longer than Hiller! For goalies, most times they're not starting they would likely consider it a disservice. There's only a handful of games left to boot.

Under certain conditions I would agree. But this presumes that he three healthy Flames goalies are jockeying for position in the lineup right now, which I very much doubt. I think it is more likely that the coaching staff has already outlined a playing schedule, and all three know exactly where they stand. As such, no, I don't believe Ortio, Hiller, or Backstrom are the least bit bothered when they do not start a game in which they were not scheduled to play.

How can Trevy have confidence that Ortio can handle 25 games if Ortio has never played 25 games? Also keep in mind your backup might be your starter in the event that your goalie get injured. So how do you know that your backup can handle a 5:1 ratio if he's never played as much?

Why does it matter at this point? Ortio is only 24-years-old, and will not be the Flames starter at the beginning of next season, if at all.

We're going in circles. You say there's no harm, I'm saying there is. Just agree to disagree.

I can't agree, because you are wrong.

You are responding irrationally and with incredible short sight to a situation that has not yet played itself out. I and others continue to point to very good reasons why it would make sense to start Hiller in tonight's game in stead of Ortio, and yet you remain obstinately committed to this notion that somehow this is unequivocally a huge mistake. It doesn't make any sense.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

11 page GDT for a meaningless game.

I think we should have a poll to see how many of us are now unemployed vs. employed with no work to do.

Probably wouldn't of made page 2 if Ortio was starting...

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I think we should have a poll to see how many of us are now unemployed vs. employed with no work to do.

Haha, too true

[OutOfTheCube]

Hey I'm not putting anyone down who cheers or hopes for a loss or whatever. I did it last year. But me and the rest of the fanbase also got lambasted for it last year, including here. Interesting to see the shoe on the other foot now.

And really, what's the difference between "not caring if they win" VS. "cheering for a loss" -- at least one is getting you invested in some way.

[Cube Inmate]

On the "losing culture" topic ...

The risk is not that players (or coaches) will start to think losing is acceptable. The risk is that they'll start to believe that it's inevitable. Every member of every NHL team think that he, individually, has what it takes to be a part of a championship. So the question that has to go through their minds is, why don't WE, as a team, manage to win more games?

A "winning culture" team is one that tries to find the answers within. They work to get better individually, and as a team, without waiting for the next "savior" to come along. This team is already thinking about next year, and treating the last 20 games as an extended pre-season to start learning how to win together.

A "losing culture" team is one that waits for help...that only believes they'll be better next year after "something" happens, whether that's a new coach, high draft pick, UFA signing, or fancy new arena. This team is really only playing out the string.

So what are the Flames doing? Are the forwards and defense corps just playing out the string while waiting for a competent goalie to magically appear next September? Are they going through the motions hoping for a new coaching staff? Are they playing for individual contracts? Does Bob's choice of starting goalie affect that?

Man...I wish I knew.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

^ out of thanks but thanks

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Hiller is a pro. Backstrom is a pro. Management isn't going to bench these guys for the rest of the season even though YOU might want them to.

If you look at all the remaining games this season this is a good game to play our backup. Certainly much better to play Hiller this game then against the Pens on Sat.

Treliving has already gone on record saying they are going to give Ortio the bulk of the starts. So I don't know why anybody can be unhappy with this.

Indeed. Management never benches pros. Never. I mean who would ever park Backstrom on the bench (for example) or waive a veteran pro. Never seen that recently.

I also agree that management owes starts to these contracted millionaires. Much better to forward their careers then give opportunities to developing talent (who most of you didn't have any concern with rotting on the bench and in the press box despite the potential impact to their careers).

I also agree that treating Hiller ad the backup and giving him sheltered starts over the developing goalie makes a lot of sense. It's a fantastic defense really.

The problem with trying to rationalize irrational decisions is that it leads to more irrational horse poop.

[Street Pharmacist]

Well put cube. Confidence is the difference between Rinne being a Vezina candidate and being awful. Same for most players. You stop thinking you can win and you'll stop winning

[mikephoen]

The Ortio backers should remember that any time Hiller starts, there is still a decent chance that Ortio plays in the game.