[News] CalgaryNEXT Announcement. New arena details emerge.

[Vinny01]

I hate the saddledome. When I go to games it is so frustrating to maneuver around the crowded concourse. Getting food and booze is a huge pain unless you are willing to miss part of the game. I have had instances where it was harder to get out of the bathroom than get in because the one entrance/exit was crammed with people trying to barge in. The seats are pretty uncomfortable when compared to other buildings. It is dated and needs to be retired.

As for McMahon I get that it is in worse shape but if the new field house is a go I am never going to games. The one thing I like about the Stamps and CFL is the live outdoor experience on a hot summer day/evening. People love drinking outside in the sun and that experience will be taken away with the proposed field house. I am not a fan of the CFL at all so not the type of patron the owners should be worried about.

The Flames however get a lot of my leisure dollars and will continue to do so but I likely will attend less games as the years go on until the new rink is built

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by Table 5

It doesn't have to be an either/or scenario. At the end of the, many of us agree that the Saddledome, while still functional, is behind the times and an upgrade would be hugely beneficial from a fan-experience standpoint. But we also believe, that as with any other private business, the cost should be on the owners and their paying customers, and not the public.

Nobody is saying the Flames can't build a new stadium. If they really want one, they can go ahead and build a new stadium. They can buy some land, hire architects, file for permits, and pay for it's construction. You know, like every other developer in town.

These supposed roadblocks the Flames are fighting are 100% self-generated.

This is so bang on.

Basically it comes down to this, I don't want my taxes going up to support a stadium:

a) for millionaire athletes and billionaire owners, when I still have; a mortgage / debt, a murky economy situation that I am exposed to risk-wise, increasing cost of living expenses, increased municipal / property, provincial and federal taxes incoming to pay for other more important things.

b) will only pander to the already (what I'll refer to as) wealthy by implementing less general admission seats and constructing more private boxes, which actually should diminish the overall atmosphere (see: Toronto), also increase ticket prices

c) IMO, not materially increase for actual value the overall Flames game experience. You know what? I can handle long lines, a smaller-ish concourse, iffy parking (although there's many alternatives around this, and furthermore have you seen the parking plans for the new arena? There are none really), so that I don't have to pay more damn taxes.

You bet your ass if this goes through, my taxes will go up. And you know what? I think the NHL, it's owners and players have enough money. They have a profitable business model that works, which is great and which I love, but I think that for this private business to be shifting the economic burden of a fancy new building so that millionaire athletes feel a bit more pampered, and so they can rape and pillage a few more bucks off private boxes and corporate suites, enough is enough.

And the insane thing is, I'm not even against some public funding going towards something because of the, what I'll call community goodwill, I do believe is brought to the City by having the Flames present. However, the initial offer made by the Flames was insulting, ridiculous and I can see why Nenshi would treat it this way, basically, as what it is- a joke. Until the (billionaire) owners wrap their head around covering the MAJORITY of funding, they can screw right off as far as I'm concerned. Insulting opening.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by heep223

Are you serious? Umm yes a nicer stadium with better amenities, bathrooms, food and beverage options, easier access, better sight lines and a retractable roof would do wonders for attendance. I consider myself a casual stamps fans and would attend far more often if they didn't play in a hell hole.

I currently rarely go to Stamps games because I don't want to sit on a frozen metal bench and eat a dirty old wrinkled $7 hot dog, when I can barely see the play and even the "jumbotron" is so far away I can't see it. My wife just laughs when I ask her to go.

The only time I go to games is when I get wasted with the boys and thus don't care about the surroundings or the game very much. That's about once per season.

You can't seriously fathom that in a cold weather climate, replacing a building constructed in 1959 with a new modern facility isn't going to attract more people to games?

It would definitely attract more people.

The questions that remained unanswered are:

1) Why is the City of Calgary going to pay to increase the revenue stream of a private business?

2) Is it worth it for the city to pay $200 Million dollars to increase stamps attendance by 5-7k for 10 or 11 games a year?

3) Is it worth more for the city to spend $200 million on a fieldhouse where they control who owns, runs, uses the facility, the timeline for completion as well as location or should they spend that $200 million on a facility where they can't dictate who uses the facility, the timeline for completion or the location of the building?

For $200 million, sounds like you'd get a lot more bang for your buck without the Stamps involved than with.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

It would definitely attract more people.



The questions that remained unanswered are:



1) Why is the City of Calgary going to pay to increase the revenue stream of a private business?



2) Is it worth it for the city to pay $200 Million dollars to increase stamps attendance by 5-7k for 10 or 11 games a year?



3) Is it worth more for the city to spend $200 million on a fieldhouse where they control who owns, runs, uses the facility, the timeline for completion as well as location or should they spend that $200 million on a facility where they can't dictate who uses the facility, the timeline for completion or the location of the building?



For $200 million, sounds like you'd get a lot more bang for your buck without the Stamps involved than with.

All that aside, I was disagreeing with your comments that the stadium had precious little to do with getting more fans to games.

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by heep223

Are you serious? Umm yes a nicer stadium with better amenities, bathrooms, food and beverage options, easier access, better sight lines and a retractable roof would do wonders for attendance. I consider myself a casual stamps fans and would attend far more often if they didn't play in a hell hole.

I currently rarely go to Stamps games because I don't want to sit on a frozen metal bench and eat a dirty old wrinkled $7 hot dog, when I can barely see the play and even the "jumbotron" is so far away I can't see it. My wife just laughs when I ask her to go.

The only time I go to games is when I get wasted with the boys and thus don't care about the surroundings or the game very much. That's about once per season.

You can't seriously fathom that in a cold weather climate, replacing a building constructed in 1959 with a new modern facility isn't going to attract more people to games?

It might a little bit I agree, but the biggest problem the Stampeders have is not McMahon stadium, it's the reduced quality of the product. And a new stadium won't make that fixed.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by heep223

All that aside, I was disagreeing with your comments that the stadium had precious little to do with getting more fans to games.

But it does have precious little to do with it, the CFL is seeing steadily decreasing attendance figures and an average viewer demographic now over 50 years old.

The CFL has seen their average fan go to fewer games with each passing year, almost like clockwork.

CFL Fans don't go to games because it's better to watch the game on TV. Good weather, bad weather, good team, bad team, this trend is holding constant.

I grew up watching CFL football, this isn't the case of a CFL hating fan coming in to crap on the product. The product is bad and that's why no one wants to watch it live anymore when they can watch it from home and change the channel every 5 minutes.

[flamesfan6]

Why are people still arguing over if the city should pay any % of this arena/stadium?

Unless the city is guaranteed revenue from flames games, concerts, etc then there is absolutely no reason the city should spend any money at all on this project. If there is no revenue to the city that can makeup what they spend there is absolutely nothing motivating the city to spend any of it's own money on this.

The owners can afford the stadium themselves.

Let's just say 50% of Calgarians support the flames and say a new arena (and that 50% is probably super high for supporting a new arena) - Why should the other 50% have to have their taxes raised to build a new arena, when the owners can afford it themselves?

I find it hilarious people are actually hating Nenshi for not wanting to support this in it's current state - I bet 100% that if he agreed to the current state of the proposal and built the arena that they would all hate him afterwords once tax increases hit to support it.

The owners can build it themselves if they want to.

For all those wanting a nicer arena - Are you willing to pay more in taxes (you should since you all earn 100k+/year ) to support the arena? Maybe the city should send out a survey, and only tax those who say yes.

Maybe the city can ask people to spend x% / year on a arena fund (opt-in) to pay for this in 10-15 years.

[Tinordi]

This has been a disaster for the Flames ownership so far.

What exactly was the purpose of putting out some half baked "proposal" like this?

Maybe this is the foil the Flames will use to try to force parties to come together where they can renegotiate their relationship with the stampede board.

Fundamentally, Nenshi's right, there's nothing there. It's not even half baked. So maybe this proposal is meant to be that while still opening up a formal process between other essential stakeholders.

[Scary Eloranta]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

McMahon is great. My season ticket are cheap, keep in that way and buy some GD 3G visa machines already.

What is so great about it? The aluminum seats, the brutal lineups for food, beer and washrooms or the crappy location?

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

This has been a disaster for the Flames ownership so far.

What exactly was the purpose of putting out some half baked "proposal" like this?

Maybe this is the foil the Flames will use to try to force parties to come together where they can renegotiate their relationship with the stampede board.

Fundamentally, Nenshi's right, there's nothing there. It's not even half baked. So maybe this proposal is meant to be that while still opening up a formal process between other essential stakeholders.

They overestimated the support they'd receive. We'd just made the playoffs, won a round, Flames fever was the highest it had been in years. I'm guessing they tried to jump on that wave and rushed.

[Crumpy-Gunt]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

This is so bang on.

Basically it comes down to this, I don't want my taxes going up to support a stadium:

a) for millionaire athletes and billionaire owners, when I still have; a mortgage / debt, a murky economy situation that I am exposed to risk-wise, increasing cost of living expenses, increased municipal / property, provincial and federal taxes incoming to pay for other more important things.

b) will only pander to the already (what I'll refer to as) wealthy by implementing less general admission seats and constructing more private boxes, which actually should diminish the overall atmosphere (see: Toronto), also increase ticket prices

c) IMO, not materially increase for actual value the overall Flames game experience. You know what? I can handle long lines, a smaller-ish concourse, iffy parking (although there's many alternatives around this, and furthermore have you seen the parking plans for the new arena? There are none really), so that I don't have to pay more damn taxes.

You bet your ass if this goes through, my taxes will go up. And you know what? I think the NHL, it's owners and players have enough money. They have a profitable business model that works, which is great and which I love, but I think that for this private business to be shifting the economic burden of a fancy new building so that millionaire athletes feel a bit more pampered, and so they can rape and pillage a few more bucks off private boxes and corporate suites, enough is enough.

And the insane thing is, I'm not even against some public funding going towards something because of the, what I'll call community goodwill, I do believe is brought to the City by having the Flames present. However, the initial offer made by the Flames was insulting, ridiculous and I can see why Nenshi would treat it this way, basically, as what it is- a joke. Until the (billionaire) owners wrap their head around covering the MAJORITY of funding, they can screw right off as far as I'm concerned. Insulting opening.

I like this post. It saved me a lot of typing.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

You bet your ass if this goes through, my taxes will go up.

Just curious how do you figure your specific taxes will go up?

What has been presented by the Flames thus far proposes 3 methods of government funding

1. Ticket tax - Flames are going to pay back this loan by having a ticket tax on all future tickets sales.

2. CRL - Property taxes on future development in the same area as the arena is being used to pay back this loan.

3. $200 million for fieldhouse. City council has already approved this amount
and just needs to fund it. Your taxes are already going up because of it.

You can go ahead and argue that governments and taxpayers shouldn't be loaning money to private businesses for sports arenas/stadiums or that there is better use for that money than stadium/arenas.

But the way the Flames have presented the financing, almost all Calgarians are not going to see a tax increase.

[Table 5]

I don't necessarily think taxes are guaranteed to go up (although ticket prices certainly will), but at some point other things will miss out on funding, simply because there is only so much money to go around. Health care, Transit, Roads, Arts, Parks...something at some point will suffer because of the hundreds of millions spent on the Flames. There are consequences to every dollar spent.

[Tinordi]

Oh and this should be said: Trudeau bucks will fund this arena over Nenshi's and Trudeau's dead bodies.

Much much much bigger infrastructure priorities than to improve how well off sports fans dry their hands between periods.

[shermanator]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

This is so bang on.

Basically it comes down to this, I don't want my taxes going up to support a stadium:

a) for millionaire athletes and billionaire owners, when I still have; a mortgage / debt, a murky economy situation that I am exposed to risk-wise, increasing cost of living expenses, increased municipal / property, provincial and federal taxes incoming to pay for other more important things.

b) will only pander to the already (what I'll refer to as) wealthy by implementing less general admission seats and constructing more private boxes, which actually should diminish the overall atmosphere (see: Toronto), also increase ticket prices

c) IMO, not materially increase for actual value the overall Flames game experience. You know what? I can handle long lines, a smaller-ish concourse, iffy parking (although there's many alternatives around this, and furthermore have you seen the parking plans for the new arena? There are none really), so that I don't have to pay more damn taxes.

You bet your ass if this goes through, my taxes will go up. And you know what? I think the NHL, it's owners and players have enough money. They have a profitable business model that works, which is great and which I love, but I think that for this private business to be shifting the economic burden of a fancy new building so that millionaire athletes feel a bit more pampered, and so they can rape and pillage a few more bucks off private boxes and corporate suites, enough is enough.

And the insane thing is, I'm not even against some public funding going towards something because of the, what I'll call community goodwill, I do believe is brought to the City by having the Flames present. However, the initial offer made by the Flames was insulting, ridiculous and I can see why Nenshi would treat it this way, basically, as what it is- a joke. Until the (billionaire) owners wrap their head around covering the MAJORITY of funding, they can screw right off as far as I'm concerned. Insulting opening.

Wow, couldn't agree more with this post.

Apologies to Enoch Root and others who agree in advance, but these complaints are simply the epitome of first world problems. I think that the majority of Calgarians would be very envious of your ability to drop $9000 on season tickets for this team.

Even as as who makes above median wage in this city, I have already come to terms with the fact that watching this team is something that I will only be able to do on an occasional basis, and so will my children and grandchildren, unless we hit the big time. Watching the Flames live on a more-than-occasional basis is just unrealistic for the majority of people in this city, and as such, I think season ticket holders will have a hard time feeling sympathy for their plight of long bathroom lines and crowded concourses.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by Table 5

I don't necessarily think taxes will go up (although ticket prices certainly will) but what will happen is that at some point other things will simply miss out on funding, simply because there is only so much money to go around. Health care, Transit, roads, hospitals, arts, parks...something at some point will suffer because of the hundreds of millions spent on the Flames.

The city's balance sheet has an opportunity cost. If it didn't, the city could go on loaning money to build anything and everything it wanted.

I'm other words, the city's credit rating isn't some magical source of free money. Using it to fund a ticket tax and create a CRL takes away from using it for other purposes.

[Schraderbrau]

ask yourself these two questions:

Does the city of Calgary benefit by having the Flames?

Would the city of Calgary be worse off without the Calgary Flames?

If you answer yes to either then maybe they should chip in. Now go ahead and yell at me...

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Just curious how do you figure your specific taxes will go up?

What has been presented by the Flames thus far proposes 3 methods of government funding

1. Ticket tax - Flames are going to pay back this loan by having a ticket tax on all future tickets sales.

2. CRL - Property taxes on future development in the same area as the arena is being used to pay back this loan.

3. $200 million for fieldhouse. City council has already approved this amount
and just needs to fund it. Your taxes are already going up because of it.

You can go ahead and argue that governments and taxpayers shouldn't be loaning money to private businesses for sports arenas/stadiums or that there is better use for that money than stadium/arenas.

But the way the Flames have presented the financing, almost all Calgarians are not going to see a tax increase.

Nenshi is suggesting that the calculations they have done thus far indicate the CRL would not be self-repaying and that neighborhoods surrounding the proposed site would be impacted by that extra cost.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Nenshi is suggesting that the calculations they have done thus far indicate the CRL would not be self-repaying and that neighborhoods surrounding the proposed site would be impacted by that extra cost.

No what he said was the environmental clean up combined with the CRL might not balance. And that was using an environmental clean up estimate of $50 million to $300 million. A pretty big range.

Since this project has been announced it was known it would live or die on how much the clean up would be. Nothing new has been brought to light.

Still too many questions on how much it will actually cost and who will pay for what.

And again it sounds like the environmental clean up needs to happen regardless if CalgaryNEXT goes forward or not.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Schraderbrau

ask yourself these two questions:

Does the city of Calgary benefit by having the Flames?

Would the city of Calgary be worse off without the Calgary Flames?

If you answer yes to either then maybe they should chip in. Now go ahead and yell at me...

Ha, could you please oversimplify a little more?