Thank god Canadians are civil with political debates

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Azure

Also, I tend that the politicians here in Canada that always make the news aren't as mentally ######ed as the ones in the US that make the news.

But hey, nothing like sending in union members to meetings to counter health care critics. Makes for some civil political debate right there. I would be pissed off right now if I lived in the US too. Especially considering when people like Pelosi, Boxer, Reid and even Obama are quite willing to ignore or even degrade what the mainstream American wants, and force through their own version of what they think is best for the country.

I've said it many times before, but when the President and the top-dogs in Congress are in the outs with the blue-dog Democrats, something is seriously wrong.

And right now, they ARE in the outs.

You're really grasping for straws. Even though you don't like Obama's agenda, he is setting out to work on the agenda he campaigned on. And the blue dog democrats have a great relationship with the President. He has frequent meetings with them and has warned liberal groups not to attack them.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

fyp.

And so far, the smart money says he is a massive improvement over his predecessor, health care boondoggles aside.

That's like saying Reagan was a massive improvement over his predecessor... yeah, and? Cheez Wiz is better than manure (I assume).

[LChoy]

When I opened this thread, I was expecting to see videos like this from other parts of the world:

When Politics gets physical...

From Taiwan

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbSvPtyCoEs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g10PA...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ht9WE...eature=related

From the Ukraine
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u50YI...eature=related

From Mexico
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7poK4...eature=channel

From Korea
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KlmS...eature=related

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

That's like saying Reagan was a massive improvement over his predecessor... yeah, and? Cheez Wiz is better than manure (I assume).

What, you haven't tried Cheez Wiz?

[starseed]

Originally Posted by octothorp

In the US, the vicious civil discourse begins with the prolific political punditry engines that both parties possess. Meanwhile, their politicians are relatively civil to one another. It's much easier for a populace to listen to pundits and get whipped into a fury, because they can more easily emotionally invest themselves in a Limbaugh or Olberman figure. Their politicians don't need to get into the dirty work of whipping up a populace, and can remain, for the most part, above the fray. If you're a republican voter, you don't need to respect Glenn Beck; you can dislike him but listen to what he says, and instead respect McCain.
All of this, combined with the two party system, creates a system where there's very vicious discourse at a low level and very civil discourse at a higher level, which in turn drives party membership which fuels the entire machine.

Here in Canada by contrast, we lack that punditry engine. I can't even think of the names of true shill opinionists on either side; even a left-leaning guy like Rex Murphy will tear into the Liberals whenever he can get in a good shot. More polarized voices (say, the Ezra Levants of the country) are largely ignored. Without this punditry engine, the political rhetoric rests almost entirely on the folks in the House of Commons, and when they yell at each other, it doesn't whip up any sort of power-base, it just causes us to roll our eyes or sigh in frustration. You can't respect the guy who's slinging the mud. All of this causes us to be more cynical about our politicians, which causes a bit more of an emotional detachment from the political process.

I love how the example you (and even I) think of is Ezra Levant. Ezra may hold positions that I strongly disagree with, but he is a smart guy who has done a lot to make us think about how much we respect free speech. Beck on the other hand, is a dim-witted clown. All he does is be a sparkplug in that engine... and does nothing to add to a civil discourse about the issues he talks about. We do not have their equivalents because they could not exist up here.

Maybe the fact that we are not as easy to incite to rage, shows that there is a stark difference between the American and the Canadian. Maybe Canadians are a little less gullible and much more slow to anger. Or maybe we are the same, but we do not have near as much to be angry about? Maybe the decentralization of the federal government is just right. There is enough control by each province, and the federal government just does not have the deep problems the US federal government has.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

fyp.

And so far, the smart money says he is a massive improvement over his predecessor, health care boondoggles aside.

Not to mention that he was clearly the better choice. Can you imagine McCain/Palin in these circumstances? Yeesh.

47% of the voting population voted for them. So, that equals a lot of dumb Americans.

If you want to put it that way.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

You're really grasping for straws. Even though you don't like Obama's agenda, he is setting out to work on the agenda he campaigned on. And the blue dog democrats have a great relationship with the President. He has frequent meetings with them and has warned liberal groups not to attack them.

Frequent meetings mean nothing.

The blue-dog Democrats are the ones telling Obama to slow the hell down with his health care plan. They're all the ones Reid, Pelosi and Boxer are trying to marginalize and ignore with the whole health care issue.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

47% of the voting population voted for them. So, that equals a lot of dumb Americans.

If you want to put it that way.

I prefer "duped." But sure, I can go with that.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by starseed

I love how the example you (and even I) think of is Ezra Levant. Ezra may hold positions that I strongly disagree with, but he is a smart guy who has done a lot to make us think about how much we respect free speech. Beck on the other hand, is a dim-witted clown. All he does is be a sparkplug in that engine... and does nothing to add to a civil discourse about the issues he talks about. We do not have their equivalents because they could not exist up here.

Maybe the fact that we are not as easy to incite to rage, shows that there is a stark difference between the American and the Canadian. Maybe Canadians are a little less gullible and much more slow to anger. Or maybe we are the same, but we do not have near as much to be angry about? Maybe the decentralization of the federal government is just right. There is enough control by each province, and the federal government just does not have the deep problems the US federal government has.

Is it just me, or does it actually seem like we have more 'provincial' rights than the individual states in the US does?

I know we don't have the problems the US government has, but that is more because of their incompetence than anything else. But it really does seem like our government is more decentralized than the US government.

Even with the Health Care issue.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

What, you haven't tried Cheez Wiz?

Nope... but I assume it's marginally better than manure.

[starseed]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is it just me, or does it actually seem like we have more 'provincial' rights than the individual states in the US does?

I know we don't have the problems the US government has, but that is more because of their incompetence than anything else. But it really does seem like our government is more decentralized than the US government.

Even with the Health Care issue.

It kinda seems that way. I dont know if anyone has analyzed this, a quick googling came up with nothing. But going by federal and provincial/state income taxes, the federal government tends to tax at very similar rates, but the Canadian provinces have a much higher income tax. Like maybe 3% in the states, and maybe ~12% in the provinces.

[zuluking]

Originally Posted by Devils'Advocate

Putting words in peoples mouth is not a very eloquent means of debating. But if it works for you....

How is it that 4 out of 10 Americans believe Saddam was behind 9/11? That's not a partisan point. Bush and Cheney both stated that Saddam had no role in 9/11. Or are you suggesting that maybe that that 40% are correct and that I am ill-informed on the issue?

I think if you asked Canadians you would get a much different result.

Fine. I'll put words in your mouth and you continue posting about an off-topic poll about 9/11. Should be fun. Read the thread title, for goodness sake. Any semblance of debate between us was lost at the word "bullcrap." My bad for not recognizing it.

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Azure

Frequent meetings mean nothing.

The blue-dog Democrats are the ones telling Obama to slow the hell down with his health care plan. They're all the ones Reid, Pelosi and Boxer are trying to marginalize and ignore with the whole health care issue.

Obama has slowed down with his health care plan. He wanted agreements on what the final bill would look like in August. But now that won't happen until October. Obama realizes how important the blue dogs are to his coalition. That's why Rahm Emanuel recently warned liberal groups to back off from criticizing the blue dogs.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

Obama has slowed down with his health care plan. He wanted agreements on what the final bill would look like in August. But now that won't happen until October. Obama realizes how important the blue dogs are to his coalition. That's why Rahm Emanuel recently warned liberal groups to back off from criticizing the blue dogs.

Yeah, and that why the Whitehouse is now saying "Punch back twice as hard"....why Pelosi is getting yelled at, and why meetings have to be canceled because of safety concerns.

Lets not even mention top Democratic law makers basically telling protesters to shut the hell up and not hold back the democratic process. Or comparing the right to free speech with the Nazi brownshirts.

Yeah, I think there sure as hell is a problem.

Peggy Noonan had a good article in the WSJ today that I mentioned earlier, about the Democrats not doing a very good job of using their 'mic'....or mouthpiece, Obama....to get the so-called moderate message across.

Oh right, there is no moderate message. The Democrats just want to force their health care bill through, without going over the consequences. Its funny, because in 2003, when the NIS report regarding Iraq and WMD was presented to Congress, none of them went over it either, and the result was a war that cost cost thousands of Americans their lives, and hundreds of thousands of Iraqis THEIR lives.

Obviously this health care bill won't be like THAT, but the point still remains. Forcing a 1,000 page bill through Congress by manipulating and marginalizing certain members on Capital Hill that want to get things right is only going to screw things up even more.

But this is the Democratic Party we're talking about. And this is Obama we're talking about. Both are very much incompetent fools that have no right to be in the position they are right now.

Obama is right with one thing. Those people who created this mess should shut the hell up. And that should also include those people who don't know how to deal with it.

The blue-dog coalition should be given the stage and put in charge with solving all these frickin' problems. At least they'll listen to what the American people want.

[Super-Rye]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

After watching all the angry groups crashing townhalls in the U.S., I realized how much more Canadians as a whole respect political differences. Political discussion is way more civil in that you don't see people screaming and shouting. Whether you belong to the NDP, Liberal or Conservative parties, no one questions each others patriotism. While the U.S. is a good neighbor, I wish they would tone down the political rhetoric on both sides.

Agreed on one front. No one really cares what side of the political spectrum you sit on, it's grand and I love seeing it. But with that said, as a whole Canadians tend to stand by and take it in the pooper when their politicians screw them. Personally I'd like to see a bit more passion over politics in Canada, these criminal politicians have to stop and it will...when the people decide they want more.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

The thing is, the "angry groups" in the U.S. are frequently staged mobs organized by lobby groups, not true "grassroots protests."

I think it's true that the general tone of the political debate is more civil in Canada. But I don't think as a general rule Americans are any less civil. This is just one ugly aspect of their political culture, and has nothing to do with the beliefs and attitudes of Americans themselves. I've had many very civil political debates with Americans of different political stripes than mine.

Looking at some pictures from the town hall meetings




I think the "staged angry mobs" are more likely overwhelmed Democrat torqued news.

And so the shock on the faces of Congressmen who’ve faced the grillings back home. And really, their shock is the first thing you see in the videos. They had no idea how people were feeling. Their 2008 win left them thinking an election that had been shaped by anti-Bush, anti-Republican, and pro-change feeling was really a mandate without context; they thought that in the middle of a historic recession featuring horrific deficits, they could assume support for the invention of a huge new entitlement carrying huge new costs.

I mean you have Pelosi accusing people of carrying in swastikas

What the town-hall meetings represent is a feeling of rebellion, an uprising against change they do not believe in. And the Democratic response has been stunningly crude and aggressive. It has been to attack. Nancy Pelosi, the speaker of the United States House of Representatives, accused the people at the meetings of “carrying swastikas and symbols like that.” (Apparently one protester held a hand-lettered sign with a “no” slash over a swastika.) But they are not Nazis, they’re Americans. Some of them looked like they’d actually spent some time fighting Nazis.
Then came the Democratic Party charge that the people at the meetings were suspiciously well-dressed, in jackets and ties from Brooks Brothers. They must be Republican rent-a-mobs. Sen. Barbara Boxer said on MSNBC’s “Hardball” that people are “storming these town hall meetings,” that they were “well dressed,” that “this is all organized,” “all planned,” to “hurt our president.” Here she was projecting. For normal people, it’s not all about Barack Obama.

My goodness when you ASK a question !!!!

[Calgaryborn]

I don't know if it has been mentioned but, has anyone noticed how civil Obama's town hall meetings are compared to these lesser Democrats? He obviously has been savvy enough to stage his own town halls and plant his own questions within it.

I do think sending Union in thugs is going to backfire. Most Americans know the Unions got an amendment to the original bill in the House so they wouldn't be taxed on their current medical plans. Now why would Union members who already have a sweet medical plan show up at these town halls with matching tee shirts and start shouting back and getting physical with those opposed to the health care plan? Who is going to believe they weren't sent?

[vicphoenix13]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

I don't know if it has been mentioned but, has anyone noticed how civil Obama's town hall meetings are compared to these lesser Democrats? He obviously has been savvy enough to stage his own town halls and plant his own questions within it.

I do think sending Union in thugs is going to backfire. Most Americans know the Unions got an amendment to the original bill in the House so they wouldn't be taxed on their current medical plans. Now why would Union members who already have a sweet medical plan show up at these town halls with matching tee shirts and start shouting back and getting physical with those opposed to the health care plan? Who is going to believe they weren't sent?

I don't think Obama plants his own questions at townhalls. He has been asked some really difficult questions since he became President at townhalls. I give the man credit for facing the common folk and explaining his decisions. Remember, Bush was known for only answering pre-screened questions at the few townhalls he had as President.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by vicphoenix13

I don't think Obama plants his own questions at townhalls. He has been asked some really difficult questions since he became President at townhalls. I give the man credit for facing the common folk and explaining his decisions. Remember, Bush was known for only answering pre-screened questions at the few townhalls he had as President.

Really? I didn't know that. Where can I find the evidence?

[FlamingLonghorn]

Originally Posted by HOZ

Looking at some pictures from the town hall meetings




I think the "staged angry mobs" are more likely overwhelmed Democrat torqued news.

I mean you have Pelosi accusing people of carrying in swastikas



My goodness when you ASK a question !!!!

Can anyone show me a minority or a person under the age of 40 in any of these protest groups? Seems old white people are just mad they are losing their country. The AARP is one of the worst things to happen to this country.