[News] UPD: Coyotes renounce the rights to draft pick Mitchell Miller

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by cannon7

We would? Had you heard of this kid before today?



Maybe not. But it's an improvement on what he was doing before. We all need to start somewhere.



Agree. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. He's a fourth round draft pick. There's a long road to the NHL, and the odds were stacked against him before this scandal broke.

He has n opportunity to set a positive example for all the other troubled kids out there. I, for one, hope me makes the most of it. Only time will tell.

If the kid had done anything either this story doesnt get written at all or it becomes a story of redemption, the fact this story got written the way it got written is because everyone the writer talked to told him the little **** hasn't done a thing, that's the whole point of the story, it doesnt work otherwise.

Personally I dont see any improvement at all, he was a privileged hockey player getting all the breaks that brings before was was busted and unless his offers are recinded he keeps all of that for absolutly no cost, the only lesson would be 'if you are good enough at hockey you can do anything you want, torture some kid for 2 or 3 years and nothing happens'
I really cant see how this makes him a good example for anything but the morality free nature of sports where college's and teams will sign any piece of crap if they can play well enough

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by GGG

A question for you. You are throwing a lot of vitriol at this person without knowing them. Given what we know about bullying - high propensity for mental illness and high potential for previous abuse can you see a scenario where you would feel bad about your current stance. If this kid was beaten every night like Patrick O’Sullivan was or some other severe abuse or illness would that change the way you are posting?

And if it would shouldn’t the fact that it is in the realm of reasonable possibilities that maybe we shouldn’t be passing such harsh judgement without knowing the situation.

We can use that excuse for absolutely every criminal ever. Absent evidence of this, why should we assume that's the case? How do you feel about Kyle Rittenhouse? Brock Turner? Ethan Couch? The Stoney Nakoda teen who shot the German tourist?

Who's to say they didn't have bad upbringings as well? I mean we know Couch did in that he wasn't given limits as a kid. But we all laughed (very angeringly) at the idea he wasn't responsible for his actions. The Stoney Nakoda teen did, as put into evidence in the case, but most people wanted to see him suffer much more than his sentence.

Do we feel the same away about sexual predators? How many of them were abused when they were young?

But that's really besides the point because there's 0 evidence that he had anything wrong with his upbringing except that he was a piece of ####. So should we now assume all pieces of #### aren't responsible? (This sounded rhetorical, but it's a serious question I'd love for you to answer).

The idea I don't know him, sure, but I know what he did. And as Cannon7 says, actions speak louder than words. We can condemn his actions and his failure to feel remorse or seek redemption from his victim.

If you can provide evidence that he himself was a victim, sure I can feel bad for him while still recognizing that what he did was disgusting and that he hasn't redeemed himself. But I think it's a folly to give him, and just him apparently, some benefit of the doubt when he hasn't insinuated there was other factors at play.

I mean, look how people crucified Sandmann for smiling respectfully at a racist elder. I'm not sure why an actual racist teen should be given a free pass if he hasn't explained the situation or apologized.

Where were all the people defending the brothers who kidnapped and raped a girl in the NE when we actually know they had a terrible upbringing and didn't have the mental capacity to know right from wrong? Most people wanted them locked off for life (some as protection, others as punishment).

As for the vitriol, I mean hoping someone who didn't beat a disabled person while being racist and refusing to apologize about it as an adult makes the NHL over him doesn't seem particular bad. If I was rooting for a career ending injury, or for him to be killed, fair enough, but right now my position is he has a right to continue to try to make the NHL and I can hope he doesn't if he doesn't seek forgiveness.

[DazzlinDino]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

So, I'm seeing a lot of posts here saying that the real thing that's standing in the way of him getting a second chance is that he has never apologized to the kid he bullied.

Honest question. If he were to issue an apology tomorrow, would that do it? Would he then be allowed to pursue a hockey career, in your view? Or would you then say, "well, that apology isn't sincere, he's only offering it because of all the media scrutiny and pressure on the team not to sign him"?

I'm actually curious.

He has an opportunity, through his actions to make the situation better. Anyone can issue a quick apology, but the point of the apology is not to please the masses but to allow the victim to begin to experience some healing and vindication from the deep humiliation and hurt that was caused. As well the apology is just one step, Obviously there is not enough from this individuals behavior that meets an acceptable organizational standards.

In other words not only should he apologize but he is going to have to earn back that trust if given an opportunity. He is likely going to be hearing from organizations all over the world asking what he plans to do to make things right. Very good opportunity here if he can recognize the stepping stone and take it!

[timbit]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I just don’t know how ones determines if it was sincere
He has had ample opportunity. The main change is his possible nhl career is maybe perhaps at risk. At minimum an apology would have to be paired with specific and sustained actions on his part

Exactly! He is the only one who will know his sincerity. His future actions and words will determine whether he is truly contrite and sincere.

I’ve made too many awful decisions to make a final judgement on an 18 year old. And yes, his actions and comments regarding the bullying and discrimination , up to this point, have been abhorrent.

Not unforgivable, though. It’s up to him!

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Honest question. If he were to issue an apology tomorrow, would that do it?

Would Isaiah Meyer-Crothers find it sincere and remorseful enough and forgive him, is what would do it.

[Point Blank]

It’s crazy to me that people are defending his character and giving him the benefit of the doubt even though he’s had multiple opportunities to apologize.

People have crucified black hockey players with “attitude problems” for way less than this. Where was the benefit of the doubt for them?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

What you’ve described, as in a 14 year old (and especially an adult) who doesn’t know right from wrong, is someone with antisocial personality disorder. After rejecting the term “psychopath,” you’re describing Miller as one. I certainly don’t think he is, but you believe he is?

Once again: Antisocial personality disorder is not diagnosed in persons under the age of 18. The criteria for APD are too similar to the normal social and moral immaturity of adolescents to be serviceable for diagnostic purposes.

A close friend of mine, who is herself a clinical psychologist, went through very much the same kind of thing with her son when he was in his early and mid-teens. He did not, as far as I know, do anything as thoroughly disgusting as what this young hockey player has done, but he was dangerous to himself and others and appeared utterly oblivious to the wrongness of his actions. My friend went through agonies because there was no way of telling whether her son was a psychopath in the making or just an unusually disturbed kid whose brain would grow out of it.

EDIT TO ADD: To the best of my knowledge, it was the latter. My friend's son, to the best of my knowledge, did not grow up to be a psychopath. It did take some pretty strong intervention to get him off the destructive path he was on, including a stint in military school, but I am happy to say that the intervention helped. Age 18 is a little late for that kind of intervention (if it's still needed) but not necessarily too late.

Who knows? Maybe the best thing for this kid would be a hitch in the Army, where nobody would treat him as special because of his athletic talent, and where, ideally, he would have a big black drill sergeant to put the fear of fire in him and the racism out.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Letter sent to NHL teams

"When I was 14 and in 8th grade I was involved in a school incident with 2 classmates that involved inappropriate actions, name calling, and racial slurs. At the time, I was not aware of the harm I was causing and being very carless (sic). The incident originally resulted in a 3-day suspension from school and later turned into more severe punishment with my school and even legal charges of assault and safe school / bullying. With embarrassment and remorse, I soon learned the gravity of my words and actions, which were completely wrong and I understand the humility it caused my friend Isaiah and his family. I take full accountability for my actions and I am sorry for the damage I caused. I have extreme regret for my actions and to be very clear, any notion of lacking of remorse or ongoing use of racial slurs is absolutely not true. I have grown and been able to understand how to behave more appropriately, how to treat others and how my actions can affect others.

I am 18 years old now and there have been no new issues or ongoing issues above and beyond from this incident. I have received individual counseling, completed cultural diversity classes and volunteered with the physically disabled. I have participated in on-going community outreach programs as part of the USHL in Iowa and Nebraska and will continue to volunteer within my community and give back to others in need. My family, coaches, friends and teammates have helped me to mature and become someone who is not defined by this mistake, but has accepted it and now make choices to be a better person than I was when I was a kid. I'm a different person than I was four years ago and I am thankful to have learned a very painful and valuable lesson."

So here he is himself saying he soon realized the gravity of his actions shortly after the incident. He says he knew it was wrong, why should we not believe him (other than his obvious other lies...)? So why didn't he apologize in earnest if he knew what he did was wrong?

How did he take full accountability and yet not apologize to his victim?

Why did he say there was no ongoing incidents if the victim and his mother says it continued both immediately after the incident and for two years after?

It seems the only people who said he had lack of remorse is his victim's family, is he calling them liars when he says that any notion of lock of remorse is not true?

Why is he calling the person who he tormented for a decade, who clearly has such negative feelings toward him, a friend?

Oh right, because it paints him in the best light without actually having to do anything to seek forgiveness from his "friend". This is the actions and words of an 18 year old, not a 14 year old. At what point can we hold him accountable for what he's saying and doing today?

[Calgary4LIfe]

Been reading a lot of back and forth here.



I really believe this kid is deserving of all the 'attacks' here - and he is becoming a victim now in every sense of the word. However, I do not feel sorry for him. Why?


He had the wherewithal to send letters to every team apologizing for what he has done. Anyone here believe he feels the slightest bit of empathy for his victim? Or is he just feeling empathy towards himself at this point?


Heck, the judge pointed this out and it was in the article. The victim came out and stated that he has yet to apologize to him. Yet, he apologized to every team?


What a crappy agent he has, seriously. Who is representing him? That's some lousy work right there. Perhaps the agent told him that he should find this kid and apologize directly, and the kid still refused.


Yeah, people deserve second chances - and third and fourth chances at that. However, these chances don't just magically fall out of the sky. You earn them. You at least make an attempt to earn them. All he has done is made an attempt to cover his own butt where his career is concerned.



This is telling.. no... this is SHOUTING at me that this kid is not remorseful, that he can not look past his own self and feel empathy towards another person even though it has been pointed out a number of times. You had the courage to bully this kid for 10 fricken years - have the courage to make one apology. One single apology.


No, this kid doesn't get a second chance until he earns it. You know what though? There is nothing stopping him from even trying to earn it. Until he does, sorry, I won't feel sorry for him, and he can continue being a 'victim' of this very public backlash now.


Earn the second chance, and things start changing. There will always be people who will want his head. However, those numbers will thin out. If he wants it to stop, he has to go so far in the other direction by apologizing directly to the victim and his family, and then put a tonne of work into anti-bullying programs. People will appreciate his sudden 'honesty', and the people calling for blood will mostly disappear.


This society is surprisingly forgiving (mostly, anyway - some people just want to stay in their own little corner). People have to earn that second chance, and keep earning forgiveness. Only then can he put this behind him.


At the moment, however, he doesn't seem remorseful to me. He just seems upset with his own circumstance.

[Strange Brew]

“I understand the humility it caused...”

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

“I understand the humility it caused...”

Yeah, did no one proofread his letter before he sent it to every team in the league?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Anyone else wish Crown Royal was still active for his perspective?

Black teen hockey player sleeps in, that's huge red flags to stay away and attitude problems.

Racist white teen hockey player bullies disabled Black teen for a decade, refuses to apologize in person, sends misleading letter to NHL teams, and well, that just probably means he had a bad upbringing and we should feel bad.

I have a feeling he would have had something to say.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by timbit

What he did was immensely wrong and awful, accentuated.

A contrite and sincere apology is not too little nor too late.

It better not be...or we are all “too little too late”, IMO.

I agree, but that would only be the start of what's necessary. He has to walk the walk by performing some act in the community (speaking engagements, volunteering with special needs people etc.). Words will ring very hollow from him at this point based on the long pattern he has. Anybody can say the words, but combining those with specific actions that SHOW he is contrite would be enough for me. If it's just words, it would only be a half-measure.

[Erick Estrada]

Wow. 16 pages on a player that has no affiliation to the Flames and hasn't played a second in the NHL. I'm not going to comb over this thread top to bottom as I'm pretty sure it comes down to a divide between posters that think this kid should pay a steep price and walk the plank and others that think that teenagers make bad decisions and should be provided an opportunity to change. Pretty boring stuff really as it's just back and forth with no resolution seeing neither side is going to change their stance.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Anyone else wish Crown Royal was still active for his perspective?

Black teen hockey player sleeps in, that's huge red flags to stay away and attitude problems.

Racist white teen hockey player bullies disabled Black teen for a decade, refuses to apologize in person, sends misleading letter to NHL teams, and well, that just probably means he had a bad upbringing and we should feel bad.

I have a feeling he would have had something to say.

Why are you even bothering to participate if your only goal is to outright lie?

You realize people can read, right? And they know that nothing of the sort has been said.

I mean, I guess CR might pretend that’s what’s happening but it’s still pretty dumb for you to do the same.

What exactly do you think you’re accomplishing by intentionally spreading false generalizations? It just makes it look like you’re dishonest or not intelligent or both.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by timbit

No apology and no repentance.
Tough to forgive.

Yup.

This is pretty much what it comes down too.

Like I said earlier, it isn't good enough that you simply not do it anymore. There has to be repentance, asking for forgiveness and then healing by both sides.

There seems to be none of this.

This isn't your standard level of bullying either.

[CliffFletcher]

How people feel emotionally about an individual case shouldn't have any bearing on the application of youth justice provisions. There's a publication ban on the identity of the girl who murdered her parents and brother in Lethbridge. You don't have to be soft on family-murder to understand and accept, however reluctantly, why those provisions are in place.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

I have made a living trying to help troubled kids 'find a way back' for 40 odd years, finding a way back though requires a sight more than just doing what the probation order forced you to do and then going back to working on your stick handling for a couple of years in the hopes that you will be good enough a player that everyone will ignore your lack of a moral compass, and we all know if the kid had done anything at all, volunteered with the special olympics or walked stray dogs (a personal favorite thing to get a kid to do for me), shown true contrition to his victim, got up on stage at school and given a mea culpa to the school, had he done anything at all we'd know about it.

As far as I can tell he has done nothing more than what he had to do to not get locked up in juvi' and try to still get drafted, none of which is finding his way back.

Does that mean the door to redemption is shut? of course not, he can still take a long and and uncompromising moral inventory and do the work he needs to do to become a better person, should this stop him from going to college, getting a degree and finding a regular job? again of course not, this act shouldnt follow him if he wants to be an ordinary schmoe like the rest of us, just if he wants to take up a position that is considered a privilege and an honour

Exactly.

And that is just it. The door to redemption is not closed. There is literally nothing stopping him from arranging a visit with the family of the poor kid he abused, and apologizing.

Until that is done, I think the Coyotes and the NHL show be cutting ties.

Life is a bitch. It is even more of a bitch when you bully people. And even more when you don't show remorse, ask for forgiveness and help your victim heal.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

I just don’t know how ones determines if it was sincere
He has had ample opportunity. The main change is his possible nhl career is maybe perhaps at risk. At minimum an apology would have to be paired with specific and sustained actions on his part

The only person who can determine if he is sincere is the poor kid he bullied, and that kids family.

Trying to draw a line in the sand and saying 'it is too late' is pretty short-sighted.

Everyone deserves a chance at forgiveness.

The issue here is that no remorse has been shown. Apparently not even an attempt.

And to be clear, sometimes in life the people that hurt you will seek forgiveness in a way where you won't think it is sincere. What can you do? Not everyone is a master at saying sorry.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Why are you even bothering to participate if your only goal is to outright lie?

You realize people can read, right? And they know that nothing of the sort has been said.

I mean, I guess CR might pretend that’s what’s happening but it’s still pretty dumb for you to do the same.

What exactly do you think you’re accomplishing by intentionally spreading false generalizations? It just makes it look like you’re dishonest or not intelligent or both.

Funny how many people you have insulted or called liars in this thread. Are you that angry that the poor abusive racist might have to face some bad publicity for being a racist?