Sam Bennett Value: Have the Flames held on TOO long? OR is he awesome?

[GranteedEV]

I will agree that Gaudreau-Bennett-Monahan lacked chemistry, since Bennett is not a natural RW he found himself struggling to get open as his preferred areas of the ice were occupied by Monahan and Gaudreau. Maybe more time together would have fixed that, IDK. I have honestly never felt Monahan and Bennett have any chemistry though so it never bothered me. It's not a knock on either guy. Maybe he needs to be played at RW for a while to adjust.

What I do know is that Gaudreau-Bennett-Ferland as a line that looked absolutely incredible in preseason and only got one game of sample size together last year, a game Monahan missed in January, where Bennett sill didb't get a chance on the PP. An opportunity was squandered after Monahan was shut down to test this line out.

[EVERLAST]

Did we trade this bum yet? I mean come on.....how many disallowed goals can one guy have before you cut him loose......like what a loser . Scores goals that aren't even like allowed or count !!!!! Pffft!!!

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[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Psytic

So if he continues to struggle do we do a change of scenery deal for another struggling high ranked pick like Dylan Strome and a third? If it doesnt pan out we still got Mangiapane.

75 points in 35 games in the OHL in 2016-2017
53 points in 50 games in the AHL in 2017-2018

He started off cold in the NHL without any professional experience. Went down to the AHL for a couple months where he lead the team in scoring despite his missed games to being in the NHL. Came back up and had 8 points in 10 games to end the season.

Arizona isn't adding to Strome to get Bennett...

[pepper24]

The biggest reason for Bennett’s decline after rookie season wasn’t Gulutzun but not playing with Backlund who sheltered him and propped his stats. GG’s first season Bennett was moved to center to carry his own line and build off rookie year. Backlund then helped groom Tkachuk. Bennett’s decline is more on player than coach.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by pepper24

The biggest reason for Bennett’s decline after rookie season wasn’t Gulutzun but not playing with Backlund who sheltered him and propped his stats. GG’s first season Bennett was moved to center to carry his own line and build off rookie year. Backlund then helped groom Tkachuk. Bennett’s decline is more on player than coach.

Every player is affected by their linemates.

Monahan and Bennett had similar first years playing with quality line mates.

Year 2, Monahan draws Gaudreau (a superstar level player who was a top player out of the gate) and Hudler (a 55-60 point pace guy), top line minutes, PP time, and flourished
Year 2, Bennett gets guys like Brouwer, Versteeg, Chiasson, 3rd line minutes, no PP time

How can people continue with the argument that it is all on him and not on the coach / line mates / situation / opportunity?

As I said, unless he physically took the lineup card and crayon away from Gulutzan, he was not going to be put in a position to succeed.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

As I said, unless he physically took the lineup card and crayon away from Gulutzan, he was not going to be put in a position to succeed.

Except when he was put in a position to succeed.

The players you mentioned weren't the only players he played with. He got time with all the good players at some point, including PP, and never really looked great. A passenger on a good line was the best he has every looked for an extended amount of time really. The Flames had every incentive to want Bennett to work out, if he doesn't, it's on him.

Yeah, if he got to play with Crosby and Ovechkin he's probably putting up a lot of points. Doesn't mean he would actually be as good as the points suggest.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Every player is affected by their linemates.

Monahan and Bennett had similar first years being sheltered.

Year 2, Monahan draws Gaudreau (a superstar level player who was a top player out of the gate) and Hudler (a 55-60 point pace guy), top line minutes, PP time, and flourished
Year 2, Bennett gets guys like Brouwer, Versteeg, Chiasson, 3rd line minutes, no PP time

How can people continue with the argument that it is all on him and not on the coach / line mates / situation / opportunity?

As I said, unless he physically took the lineup card and crayon away from Gulutzan, he was not going to be put in a position to succeed.

Monahan played center and worked his way up to the 1st line from the 3rd line, scoring 22 goals and just 8 pims on one of the worst teams in hockey.

He immediately produced as the top line centre.

Spencer Foo produced more offense with gaudreau than Bennett did.

At some point you just have to look at the goals and assists column.

[colbym72]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Except when he was put in a position to succeed.

The players you mentioned weren't the only players he played with. He got time with all the good players at some point, including PP, and never really looked great. A passenger on a good line was the best he has every looked for an extended amount of time really. The Flames had every incentive to want Bennett to work out, if he doesn't, it's on him.

Yeah, if he got to play with Crosby and Ovechkin he's probably putting up a lot of points. Doesn't mean he would actually be as good as the points suggest.

Exactly. Look at a player like Neal. He has been on numerous teams and probably had an incredible amount of different linemates and coaches but because he is a natural goal scorer, has scored 20 goals every year.

The player is mostly responsible for their production

[SeanCharles]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Monahan played center and worked his way up to the 1st line from the 3rd line, scoring 22 goals and just 8 pims on one of the worst teams in hockey.

He immediately produced as the top line centre.

Spencer Foo produced more offense with gaudreau than Bennett did.

At some point you just have to look at the goals and assists column.

He gets too many called off for that to be a fair assessment tool!

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Monahan played center and worked his way up to the 1st line from the 3rd line, scoring 22 goals and just 8 pims on one of the worst teams in hockey.

He immediately produced as the top line centre.

Spencer Foo produced more offense with gaudreau than Bennett did.

At some point you just have to look at the goals and assists column.

You are arguing the same point as me. Monahan produced with Gaudreau and Hudler. When Bennett was in his second year, the top line C was set, and the second line was set as well. He was lined up with the scraps.

That’s why some guys like Bingo pull out the stats that show production per 60, etc.

And Foo? The guy played in a few meaningless games at the end of the year. Please.

[CalgaryFan1988]

I almost can't wait for him to be traded, just so all of the Bennett haters can find someone else to rag on in order to make themselves feel better about their lives.

IMO Bennett has played well to start the season, had a legit goal last game that was disallowed because the ref was an idiot. Not sure the timing of the bitchfest is appropriate.

[ComixZone]

Originally Posted by oling_roachinen

except when he was put in a position to succeed.

The players you mentioned weren't the only players he played with. He got time with all the good players at some point, including pp, and never really looked great. A passenger on a good line was the best he has every looked for an extended amount of time really. The flames had every incentive to want bennett to work out, if he doesn't, it's on him.

Yeah, if he got to play with crosby and ovechkin he's probably putting up a lot of points. Doesn't mean he would actually be as good as the points suggest.

Let's look at Year 2 for Sam Bennett, and who he played with (from frozenpool):

20.8 bennett,sam - brouwer,troy - versteeg,kris
13.5 bennett,sam - chiasson,alex - gaudreau,johnny
11.3 bennett,sam - chiasson,alex - versteeg,kris
6.8 bennett,sam - chiasson,alex - stajan,matthew
5.4 bennett,sam - brouwer,troy - monahan,sean
5.3 bennett,sam - ferland,micheal -versteeg,kris
4.2 bennett,sam - bouma,lance - chiasson,alex
3.8 bennett,sam - brouwer,troy - tkachuk,matthew
2.8 bennett,sam - brouwer,troy - gaudreau,johnny
2.7 backlund,mikael - bennett,sam - frolik,michael

Red = players so bad at 5v5 that they hurt almost everyone they played with, or played their way out of the league.

Purple = player was productive on the PP, not a good 5v5 player, and they were on their way out of the league

Bold = good players

Green = look he played on a full line!

Brouwer, Chiasson and Versteeg were bad enough that they couldn't be carried to success by Monahan and Gaudreau, yet it was on Bennett to produce with those three 5v5 clowns. Hell, Brouwer was so bad he couldn't even produce with Monahan and Gaudreau while playing 5v4!

There's a difference between trying to hold a player accountable, and willfully ignoring circumstances as if they don't matter when they truly actually do.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Monahan played center and worked his way up to the 1st line from the 3rd line, scoring 22 goals and just 8 pims on one of the worst teams in hockey.

He immediately produced as the top line centre.

Spencer Foo produced more offense with gaudreau than Bennett did.

At some point you just have to look at the goals and assists column.

Monahan and Bennett got basically the same opportunity on the powerplay in their first year, around 2 minutes per game, and produced roughly the same amount, 7 points for monahan, 8 for bennett. They were both 7th in powerplay icetime in their respective rookie years.

Monahan scored 19 even strength goals in his rookie year, Bennett 15.

Bennett produced 28 even strenght points in his rookie year. Good for 7th on the team. Monahan scored 27 even strength points in his rookie year, good for 4th on the team.

Monahan did this on a much worse team from the centre ice position. Bennett did his on a playoff calibre team from the wing.

Bennett took 4x as many penalties as Monahan did in their rookie campaigns.

[Classic_Sniper]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well the numbers align with my eyes in a limited sample size.

You don't like Bennett though, so maybe you had a bit of bias leak in when viewing.

Treliving certainly altered the forward group and added depth, no doubt. I don't see that as directly linked to Bennett's 5 games with Monahan and Gaudreau though.

Don’t hate Bennett at all. Actually bought his jersey, but I’m more interested in wins at this point then protecting my own personal feelings for players. Bennett still has a lot of raw abilities and I’d re-sign him long term as a bottom 6 forward if he was willing to, but I’m not sure that’s going to happen.

As for Treliving, I think the moves were a scathing indictment on the performance of the bottom 6 forwards. It looked like one of the league’s worst and contributed significantly to the failure that was last season. It’s also the same reason Neal and Lindholm were tested on the top line exclusively in the preseason whereas Bennett and Jankowski were paired together on the bottom 6 the whole way. They clearly had a plan and I don’t think Bennett was ever considered for that role.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

You are arguing the same point as me. Monahan produced with Gaudreau and Hudler. When Bennett was in his second year, the top line C was set, and the second line was set as well. He was lined up with the scraps.

That’s why some guys like Bingo pull out the stats that show production per 60, etc.

And Foo? The guy played in a few meaningless games at the end of the year. Please.

He also produced with Sven and Hudler, Sven and Stempniak, Colborne and Galiardi, Brouwer and Versteeg...

[sureLoss]

In the 31 thoughts podcast, Jeff Marek said a player with the Flames told him that the knock on Sam Bennett is that he treats everything like a one on one battle

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

In the 31 thoughts podcast, Jeff Marek said a player with the Flames told him that the knock on Sam Bennett is that he treats everything like a one on one battle

I can see that in his game at times.

When he's calm he tends to use his teammates better and things slow down.

When he's on edge he gets tunnel vision and starts to go at it alone vs. the other team.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

In the 31 thoughts podcast, Jeff Marek said a player with the Flames told him that the knock on Sam Bennett is that he treats everything like a one on one battle

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I can see that in his game at times.

When he's calm he tends to use his teammates better and things slow down.

When he's on edge he gets tunnel vision and starts to go at it alone vs. the other team.

feels like some posters ahve been saying this for years.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

He also produced with Sven and Hudler, Sven and Stempniak, Colborne and Galiardi, Brouwer and Versteeg...

Yeah, at a similar rate that Bennett produced with Backlund and Frolik, etc. I said their first years were comparable. You forgot Cammalleri as well.

You know how many points Monahan got last year when Johnny was not on the ice? 2

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

feels like some posters ahve been saying this for years.

The one thing I'll say to that too though is that I didn't think he had that issue when paired with Backlund and Frolik.

And think that it really toned down after he got comfortable with Jankowski last year.

IMO it was really bad in 16/17 when he was paired with some combo of Versteeg, Brouwer, and Chiasson most of the time.