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Old 12-02-2019, 05:35 PM   #161
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I wonder if Telsa's software knows about the usage for certain stops and tells you about peak usage? If not that would be handy.
Warning, you have 10% charge left. Also warning, all Superchargers within your range have a 2 hour wait. Have a nice day!




Like that?
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:09 PM   #162
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No, but how do you pump gas if there's a power outage?
How do you do anything when the power is out.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:32 PM   #163
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How do you do anything when the power is out.

Presumably if there is a backup generator you can get gas. In the old days some people carried cash.
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Old 12-02-2019, 06:49 PM   #164
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Presumably if there is a backup generator you can get gas. In the old days some people carried cash.
And?

If you have a solar setup with a Tesla Powerwall you can store energy and charge your car at home no matter what happens to the grid. Speaking of power grid using battery farms to buffer greatly improves the reliability and also lowers cost. Search up Tesla Australia battery project

BTW Tesla is likely going to move to grid storage at their charging stations along with solar.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:00 AM   #165
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And?

If you have a solar setup with a Tesla Powerwall you can store energy and charge your car at home no matter what happens to the grid. Speaking of power grid using battery farms to buffer greatly improves the reliability and also lowers cost. Search up Tesla Australia battery project

BTW Tesla is likely going to move to grid storage at their charging stations along with solar.

This has gone on to some weird tangent. I was just explaining my reasoning behind why a backup generator might be useful at a gas station.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:10 AM   #166
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This has gone on to some weird tangent. I was just explaining my reasoning behind why a backup generator might be useful at a gas station.
Well you said or assumed a petrol station is "relatively simple" which clearly it isn't. But I found it odd you asked a question that you had previously answered.
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Aren't gas stations relatively simple though? They don't even *really* need any supporting infrastructure - worst-case you need a backup generator to run the pumps in the event of a power outage. Maybe I am oversimplifying how I think a gas station works though.
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No, but how do you pump gas if there's a power outage?
Don't know why you think it's a weird tangent to compare a petrol station, power failures and charging up your car at home. You are the one that brought up power failures.
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Old 12-03-2019, 12:39 AM   #167
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Well you said or assumed a petrol station is "relatively simple" which clearly it isn't. But I found it odd you asked a question that you had previously answered.


Don't know why you think it's a weird tangent to compare a petrol station, power failures and charging up your car at home. You are the one that brought up power failures.

I must have missed something; I thought the topic at hand was about scaling up the infrastructure for EV charging stations relative to gas stations.

I only brought up power failures as the reason why a gas station might need auxiliary power (I remember there was a massive windstorm around Revelstoke one summer and we were to fill up because one station was still able to run it’s pumps), but otherwise the operation of a gas station just seems to be refilling an underground tank and pumping it out as needed, so a gas station wouldn’t need much outside of itself to operate - and therefore quicker to build out than a series of EV charging stations along the country’s highways in places the grid might not be as well supplied to handle a number of cars at once.
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Old 12-03-2019, 01:16 AM   #168
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I'm saying we divert the massive resources dedicated to oil exploration, refinement, transport and fueling infrastructure into grid expansion, local storage, solar and the like. The gas station is a very tiny part of fueling our cars.

I think what you're missing is how much energy it takes to get the petrol to your favourite station. If you want to talk about the grid and electricity in general it takes a massive amount as part of the refinery process. And the electricity usage is scratching the surface look what it takes to run an oil refinery. Just the refinery not exploration, drilling, fracking, building of the refinery itself, fuel transport.
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp..._dcu_nus_a.htm

If you want to talk about cost a refinery can cost $15 billion, takes at least 5 years to build. $15 billion would pay for, if my quick math is correct 150,000 charging stations (which contain 10-15 outlets each).

Look at it from another angle, it will not be expensive to convert a petrol station to charging stations. Plus we don't need to do this overnight if it takes 20-30 years that's great. I'm not saying everyone can own an EV overnight and we'll be fine that's silly. In 1908 did people say, nah that car will never catch on where will I get my gasoline? I guess some did....
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:47 AM   #169
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No, but how do you pump gas if there's a power outage?
You don't. I hit Lake Louise on utter fumes once because of a power outage in Field and Golden.
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Old 12-03-2019, 03:10 PM   #170
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No, but how do you pump gas if there's a power outage?
At the far back of a parking lot next to a pickup truck with a hose and your lips.
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Old 12-03-2019, 09:46 PM   #171
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Warning, you have 10% charge left. Also warning, all Superchargers within your range have a 2 hour wait. Have a nice day!

Like that?
Or at least direct you to one with a smaller line that might not be the obvious choice.

Or planning a trip a longer distance and it takes such things into account.

Mind you we already have this for gas, the rules are just simpler.

1. Stay away from Costco
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Old 12-05-2019, 01:42 PM   #172
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Originally Posted by zamler View Post
I'm saying we divert the massive resources dedicated to oil exploration, refinement, transport and fueling infrastructure into grid expansion, local storage, solar and the like. The gas station is a very tiny part of fueling our cars.

I think what you're missing is how much energy it takes to get the petrol to your favourite station. If you want to talk about the grid and electricity in general it takes a massive amount as part of the refinery process. And the electricity usage is scratching the surface look what it takes to run an oil refinery. Just the refinery not exploration, drilling, fracking, building of the refinery itself, fuel transport.
https://www.eia.gov/dnav/pet/pet_pnp..._dcu_nus_a.htm

If you want to talk about cost a refinery can cost $15 billion, takes at least 5 years to build. $15 billion would pay for, if my quick math is correct 150,000 charging stations (which contain 10-15 outlets each).

Look at it from another angle, it will not be expensive to convert a petrol station to charging stations. Plus we don't need to do this overnight if it takes 20-30 years that's great. I'm not saying everyone can own an EV overnight and we'll be fine that's silly. In 1908 did people say, nah that car will never catch on where will I get my gasoline? I guess some did....

I still think this argument is being obtuse to the points made before, 1 being the increased need for power generation which also isn't free (whichever way you choose to do it, plus these powerwalls if you choose to throw all the money at tesla), and to do so in a manner and timeframe that won't compromise the power delivery to everyones everyday lives (ie, there are already black and brownouts from outstripping capacity). 10-15 superchargers are, as the math was done previously, not exactly low power consumers.



You can't make the argument about refining cost and delivery cost and completely ignore generation cost, or hardware cost, or delivery, environmental and infrastructure cost for electricity. This is the biggest fallacy in the electric car ownership groups, they consistently exclude many factors that are remarkably similar between the two energy groups, from manufacture, to mining, to generation, pollution, general environmental impact to recycling or lack thereof.
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Old 12-05-2019, 05:49 PM   #173
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I would even say $30k pricetag, 500 km range, and 300 km between chargers. Right now I still cannot drive to Winnipeg, as there is 475 km between chargers in Regina and MacGregor, MB.
Don't EVs also lose range over time? That is, the battery's ability to hold a charge degrades over time, such that a vehicle with 500km range new might have 300km range after 10 years or so? Because that is also a fairly significant issue when investing in a new vehicle...
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:33 PM   #174
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Don't EVs also lose range over time? That is, the battery's ability to hold a charge degrades over time, such that a vehicle with 500km range new might have 300km range after 10 years or so? Because that is also a fairly significant issue when investing in a new vehicle...
Only the Nissan's that don't have proper thermal management. There are long terms studies that show Tesla's only lose 10-15% over hundreds of thousands of km's from their early Model S's. I thought it would be an issue, but turns out it isn't a big deal. Though it could still be a bigger issue after 10 years, to soon to tell.
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Old 12-05-2019, 06:38 PM   #175
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Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
Don't EVs also lose range over time? That is, the battery's ability to hold a charge degrades over time, such that a vehicle with 500km range new might have 300km range after 10 years or so? Because that is also a fairly significant issue when investing in a new vehicle...
Giant thread at one of the largest Tesla fan forums about this issue, though this was a sudden drop and theorized that Tesla discovered degradation issues that it hadn't accounted before, requiring it to cap the maximum voltage of the cells for its own protection:


https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...ftware.154976/


Hand-in-hand with capacity degradation is a reduction in maximum charging speeds, which impacts the ability of the car for long-distance travel (as well as directly adding to congestion at these high-power DC charging stations).


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Old 12-06-2019, 10:22 AM   #176
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To the last point, it seems that plug-in hybrids have already come and gone and are not that popular. There's too much downside in terms of expense, weight, maintenance, and space in building a car so it can run on gas too. A lot of the plug in hybrids have already been discontinued, and most of the new announcements are pure electric for these reasons.

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“The only thing holding us back on hybrids is capacity,” Bob Carter, Toyota’s North American executive vice president for sales, told reporters on Thursday at an event in Detroit. “We can’t make enough Corolla and RAV4 hybrids.”
While many of its competitors are walking away from hybrids and plowing billions into battery-powered cars, the Japanese automaker has seen demand surge for its 14 gasoline-electric models. Toyota’s hybrids accounted for 13% of total Toyota and Lexus brand sales in the U.S. last month and made up nearly a quarter of the volume for its top seller, the RAV4 compact SUV.
Toyota could easily sell twice the number of hybrid RAV4 models, but can’t source enough electric batteries for the popular vehicle, Carter said. It currently has an 11-day supply of them in stock, compared to more than 20 days’ supply of gasoline-powered versions, he said.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...odels-in-stock


I think this is all regular hybrids, not PHEV, as they mention this at the bottom:


Quote:
Toyota plans to shift production of the RAV4 hybrid from Canada to a plant in Kentucky early next year, and also add a plug-in hybrid option from next summer to be imported from Japan.

Interesting they are already feeling the pinch on batteries.
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Old 12-06-2019, 12:32 PM   #177
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Basic question - why do carmakers continue to produce hybrid vehicles over 100% electric?

I like Toyota and would buy a Toyota electric vehicle but they seem to only focus on hybrid.

Ive asked around and hybrid seems more complicated and much more expensive for repairs compared to electric. I've also heard a regular vehicle has around 300 parts that could potentially be replaced compared to an electric vehicle that has around 30 - could be wrong but seems like a no brainer.

So why not go 100% electric instead of hybrid, is it because they just haven't advanced the technology far enough?

I like Toyota and my current vehicle (gas) is going on 13 years, and if I could get the same out of a hybrid I would do so but not sure if I could.
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Old 12-06-2019, 01:44 PM   #178
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For all the reasons discussed in this thread about capacity, range, charging times and cost.


Toyota is a little different beast, as they invested heavily in hydrogen, and really want to make that work so they have not gotten fully into battery electric.
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Old 12-11-2019, 08:58 AM   #179
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Giant thread at one of the largest Tesla fan forums about this issue, though this was a sudden drop and theorized that Tesla discovered degradation issues that it hadn't accounted before, requiring it to cap the maximum voltage of the cells for its own protection:


https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/thre...ftware.154976/


Hand-in-hand with capacity degradation is a reduction in maximum charging speeds, which impacts the ability of the car for long-distance travel (as well as directly adding to congestion at these high-power DC charging stations).


This is after 216,000 miles. Or 350,000km. How many problems would a gas vehicle have had by then?
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Old 12-11-2019, 12:11 PM   #180
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Basic question - why do carmakers continue to produce hybrid vehicles over 100% electric?

I like Toyota and would buy a Toyota electric vehicle but they seem to only focus on hybrid.

Ive asked around and hybrid seems more complicated and much more expensive for repairs compared to electric. I've also heard a regular vehicle has around 300 parts that could potentially be replaced compared to an electric vehicle that has around 30 - could be wrong but seems like a no brainer.

So why not go 100% electric instead of hybrid, is it because they just haven't advanced the technology far enough?

I like Toyota and my current vehicle (gas) is going on 13 years, and if I could get the same out of a hybrid I would do so but not sure if I could.
Frankly, based on your post it sounds like EV's are just not profitable.

Expensive to manufacture, with much less service, but expected at the same price as a gas vehicle.

Why would Toyota want to pursue this when they can't build enough hybrids?
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