Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 12-02-2019, 01:37 PM   #6221
soulchoice
First Line Centre
 
soulchoice's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion View Post
I'm curious to hear what people's thoughts are on bringing Brodie back. I've come around on the idea of an extension.

I think if the Flames sign Brodie to a deal, term should be the biggest consideration. I'd be a lot more comfortable with a 3- or 4-year deal at a higher salary, like $5.5ish million, than a 6-year deal, even if it is cheaper.

Signing Brodie and letting Hamonic, Frolik, Talbot, etc walk opens up plenty of cap space to extend Andersson to a long-term deal (the longer, the better in this case -- I'd even be ok with seeing the franchise's first 8-year deal) and would also likely allow the Flames to sign a mid-tier UFA to a reasonable deal.
Despite Brodie being a much maligned player on this site, I still feel he is the second best dman on the team as it stands. With regards to Hamonic vs Brodie, yes Travis brings an element that is lacking on the team. However it is my opinion is that Brodies game will not decline as quickly as Hammer. In 3-4 years, due to his skating and vision, he will still be a good player. Whereas between his style of play and skill set, I dont feel Hamonic will be as effective as a player years into his contract.

That would be a concern for me, hence I would rather keep Brodie, if having to pay either player the same amount over the course of a 4-5 year contract extension.
soulchoice is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to soulchoice For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 01:38 PM   #6222
Flash Walken
Franchise Player
 
Flash Walken's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2005
Exp:
Default

It doesn't matter what the statistics are of drafting a mediocre player, drafting a Duncan Keith or Joe nieuwendyk or Patrice bergeron can change the course of your franchise for a decade or more.

That's the opportunity cost you're giving up by trading a valuable pick like that for a player with a career high of 16 points in 200+ games.

"It goes both ways" because the flames have Andersson is completely missing the point. The flames have Andersson because they used that pick instead of trading it away.

What if instead of just Andersson the flames had Kyrou and Formenton as well instead of one ####ty season from each of Elliott and Lazar? What if the flames could've moved one of those prospects for an actual good player last year or this year instead of walking away from BOTH of Elliott and Lazar without anything to show for it?

The lack of picks is a huge reason the flames can't ever make proactive trades for expiring players.

Can't move backlund for a haul of picks in his peak career season, instead need to re-sign him because there is no one on the horizon able to pick up the slack.

It wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen with every single flames gm since 2006. The only gm who was justified in doing it was Sutter because he had a team that went to the final and the next season win their division and the Jennings trophy. Sure, that's an actual contender you sell picks for.

Whatever possessed treliving to spend so many picks on such a bad roster is something I don't think I will ever understand.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by GoJetsGo View Post
How does the number of playoff games the Bruins won *this last season* have anything to do with their number of draft picks in the last three calendar years?
https://streamable.com/dcxaz
Flash Walken is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Flash Walken For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 01:44 PM   #6223
bubbsy
Franchise Player
 
bubbsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

I would definitely be open to signing Brodie back at a $4.5M/year deal for 4 years type deal, and I would like the flames to not only move on from harmonic, but get something back in a trade in-season for him
bubbsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:45 PM   #6224
Sylvanfan
Appealing my suspension
 
Sylvanfan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: I ain't playing nose tackle in a 3-4 defence
Exp:
Default

The one thing the Flames did not commit very hard to was going say 3 consecutive drafts where they stocked up on picks, and used those picks to pick players.

Even the Hamilton trade, although a good result in terms of the price paid, seemed to show a rush to deviate from a plan to stock and use picks.

If this group can't be a playoff team this, year than I am all for trading off every player not named Tkachuck and committing to a true 3 year rebuild where the goal is to accrue picks and use them in the draft. Yeah, it will suck, and I don't buy tickets...so watching a team get it's ass handed to it for 3 years isn't any skin off my back. But the group they have does not look like it has a the pedigree to do more than make the playoffs and get bounced out pretty hard in round 1. So why perpetuate that any more?
__________________
"Some guys like old balls"
Patriots QB Tom Brady
Sylvanfan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Sylvanfan For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 01:56 PM   #6225
Funkhouser
Scoring Winger
 
Funkhouser's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: MTL
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
The player that Philly fans think has value, but they are willing to part with because of a big cap hit and length of contract, is Jacob Voracek. I think that the ship has sailed on Farabee and Lindblom, as they have been on Hayes and Couturier's lines respectively, all year.

So the ask from the Phillys would be something like Gaudreau and Backlund (salary balance and they can use him) for Voracek, Frost (I think this guy is going to be really good), Ratcliffe (wildcard) and a 1st.

You're honestly not going to get more than that from them, and it would be a shakeup trade for both teams. You would have to take a core player, and that means Voracek or JVR (gross). It also means giving up more than Gaudreau to balance salaries, and they don't need defense and won't take Frolik or Lucic.

I would still consider it, but any trade is going to be full of massive question marks.
I think this is on the right track...
I am pretty sure Gaudreau, with 2.5 years on a good cap hit, and being a local boy, is worth an overpay from the Flyers perspective. But it is still a cap world and we would rather re-tool than rebuild.

I would focus on a similar package that gets us some future pieces that could contribute right now in the top 6 and a large cap dump from them:
Frost (potential 1st line C - Entry level)
Lindblom (2nd line LW - RFA)
Voracek (1/2 line RW - 4.5 years @$8.25M)

for

Gaudreau (1st line LW - 2.5 yrs @ $6.75M)
Lucic (4th line LW - 3.5yrs @$5.25M)


This would give us a lineup of:
Tkachuk - Monahan - Lindholm
Lindblom - Frost - Voracek
Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube
Frolik - Ryan - Czarnik
Funkhouser is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:08 PM   #6226
Monahammer
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Monahammer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: St. Albert (Calgary-Jr.)
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Funkhouser View Post
I think this is on the right track...
I am pretty sure Gaudreau, with 2.5 years on a good cap hit, and being a local boy, is worth an overpay from the Flyers perspective. But it is still a cap world and we would rather re-tool than rebuild.

I would focus on a similar package that gets us some future pieces that could contribute right now in the top 6 and a large cap dump from them:
Frost (potential 1st line C - Entry level)
Lindblom (2nd line LW - RFA)
Voracek (1/2 line RW - 4.5 years @$8.25M)

for

Gaudreau (1st line LW - 2.5 yrs @ $6.75M)
Lucic (4th line LW - 3.5yrs @$5.25M)


This would give us a lineup of:
Tkachuk - Monahan - Lindholm
Lindblom - Frost - Voracek
Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube
Frolik - Ryan - Czarnik
Voracek has almost as many points as johnny this season and has been a flyers superstar for the last 6 seasons, I dont think they see him as a cap dump. No way they would do him and frost for Johnny, let alone add lindblom and take lucic. Lol. Crazy!
Monahammer is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Monahammer For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 02:15 PM   #6227
David Struch
Powerplay Quarterback
 
David Struch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Exp:
Default

Another angle to consider when speculating on Flames trade targets is the leadership aspect.( Calgary being after Vancouver's Alternate Captain Alexander Edler and now Jersey's Alternate Captain Taylor Hall)

Could some sort of package built around Flyers Captain Claude Giroux and Morgan Frost be enticing enough for the Flames to consider moving Johnny for. (Voracek, Hayes, and Couturier all wear the "A's" in Philly.)

Tkachuk - Monahan - Lindholm
Mangiapane - Frost - Giroux
Dubé - Backlund - Bennett
David Struch is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to David Struch For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 02:17 PM   #6228
TheScorpion
First round-bust
 
TheScorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Exp:
Default

At this point, I would have no interest in trading Lucic. He has been a positive presence in the bottom-six and is a big part of the Flames' best line. He's bringing much of what made Hathaway such a valuable contributor last year and I think the Flames would fare worse without him.
__________________
the only monster on this bus is a lack of proper respect for the rules
TheScorpion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:20 PM   #6229
Yoho
Franchise Player
 
Yoho's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Chestermere
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion View Post
At this point, I would have no interest in trading Lucic. He has been a positive presence in the bottom-six and is a big part of the Flames' best line. He's bringing much of what made Hathaway such a valuable contributor last year and I think the Flames would fare worse without him.
That’s good because most certainly no teams are asking for him and his contract.
Yoho is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:22 PM   #6230
bubbsy
Franchise Player
 
bubbsy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion View Post
At this point, I would have no interest in trading Lucic. He has been a positive presence in the bottom-six and is a big part of the Flames' best line. He's bringing much of what made Hathaway such a valuable contributor last year and I think the Flames would fare worse without him.
Lol... No interest???

He's been good, but if you can get out of that contract without taking back a worse one, you have to do it.
bubbsy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:27 PM   #6231
TheScorpion
First round-bust
 
TheScorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Exp:
Default

That's a pretty huge "if."

Lucic has been a fit. There could be teams offering contracts that look better on paper, but sacrificing that fit could be a disaster if it means bringing in another Neal-like underachiever.

Lucic drives possession, he's good defensively, he's tough, and he's a good playmaker. Ryan plays well when he's paired with a guy with sandpaper, and Lucic has been ideal in that role. His contract isn't great, but buying it out in two years offers a reasonably forgiving buyout structure that offers a lot more to like than the buyout structure of a player with a higher salary:signing bonus ratio -- nearly full cap savings in the last two years!

Just keep him instead of sacrificing that fit. He generates chances and he's quickly becoming a fan favourite. Plus, he brings an element of leaguewide hatred that the Flames have lacked for years.
__________________
the only monster on this bus is a lack of proper respect for the rules

Last edited by TheScorpion; 12-02-2019 at 02:33 PM.
TheScorpion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:29 PM   #6232
nik-
Franchise Player
 
nik-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Exp:
Default

Having no interest in trading Lucic is insanity.

You went full hyperbole, never go full hyperbole.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji View Post
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
nik- is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to nik- For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 02:33 PM   #6233
dissentowner
Franchise Player
 
dissentowner's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: SW Ontario
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Harry Lime View Post
The player that Philly fans think has value, but they are willing to part with because of a big cap hit and length of contract, is Jacob Voracek. I think that the ship has sailed on Farabee and Lindblom, as they have been on Hayes and Couturier's lines respectively, all year.

So the ask from the Phillys would be something like Gaudreau and Backlund (salary balance and they can use him) for Voracek, Frost (I think this guy is going to be really good), Ratcliffe (wildcard) and a 1st.

You're honestly not going to get more than that from them, and it would be a shakeup trade for both teams. You would have to take a core player, and that means Voracek or JVR (gross). It also means giving up more than Gaudreau to balance salaries, and they don't need defense and won't take Frolik or Lucic.

I would still consider it, but any trade is going to be full of massive question marks.
This trade idea is terrible and makes the Calgary Flames a lottery team. You take back a bad contract in Voracek and some magic beans for an elite winger on a great contract. Absolutely putrid! Backlund also who is struggling but not a cap dump. Plus it doesnt work cap wise for the Flyers.
dissentowner is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:33 PM   #6234
Toonage
Taking a while to get to 5000
 
Toonage's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Exp:
Default

We can trade Lucic, but it would have to happen at any time imaginable to make sense.
Toonage is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Toonage For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 02:36 PM   #6235
Rando
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Exp:
Default

Driving possession is great but Milan has zero goals, four points in almost 30 games. What's that worth with such poor results?
Rando is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:39 PM   #6236
nik-
Franchise Player
 
nik-'s Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rando View Post
Driving possession is great but Milan has zero goals, four points in almost 30 games. What's that worth with such poor results?
Driving possession into the ditch is technically still driving possession.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji View Post
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
nik- is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to nik- For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 02:41 PM   #6237
TheScorpion
First round-bust
 
TheScorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Exp:
Default

It's worth plenty. Good shifts in the offensive zone lead to scoring chances which, if they don't go in, lead to offensive zone faceoffs for the scoring lines. And Lucic should easily have three or four goals by now... guy can't buy one. He will soon. He's playing with confidence and is pushing play in the right direction. He's opening up space for the two more skilled guys on his line to score.

Lucic's value to the Flames easily surpasses his leaguewide value. He's not going to return anything valuable in a trade, so why should the Flames have any interest in dealing one of their top possession players? He has the best SAT% in the bottom-six (min 10GP) by a long shot.
__________________
the only monster on this bus is a lack of proper respect for the rules
TheScorpion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:47 PM   #6238
Scroopy Noopers
Pent-up
 
Scroopy Noopers's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Location: Ontario, unfortunately.
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion View Post
It's worth plenty. Good shifts in the offensive zone lead to scoring chances which, if they don't go in, lead to offensive zone faceoffs for the scoring lines. And Lucic should easily have three or four goals by now... guy can't buy one. He will soon. He's playing with confidence and is pushing play in the right direction. He's opening up space for the two more skilled guys on his line to score.

Lucic's value to the Flames easily surpasses his leaguewide value. He's not going to return anything valuable in a trade, so why should the Flames have any interest in dealing one of their top possession players? He has the best SAT% in the bottom-six (min 10GP) by a long shot.
To get out of the unknown years of that nightmare contract.
Scroopy Noopers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:53 PM   #6239
Harry Lime
First Line Centre
 
Harry Lime's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dissentowner View Post
This trade idea is terrible and makes the Calgary Flames a lottery team. You take back a bad contract in Voracek and some magic beans for an elite winger on a great contract. Absolutely putrid! Backlund also who is struggling but not a cap dump. Plus it doesnt work cap wise for the Flyers.
The idea was to look at it from a Flyers perspective. Cap is about 2M apart, so yeah, it not a hammered out plan. Considering that the Flyers keep being brought up, it might be a good idea to look at what they would actually do.

Frost would be the Flames best prospect not named Valimaki, and the only top line prospect. Apologies to Dube. Radcliffe bottom six prospect and 1st in a deep draft. Philly would insist on salary going back, and not give up Giroux or Couturier.

Of course Backlund isn't a cap dump. That's why they would want him.

A Flyers fan would say they are giving up a lot.
__________________
"Writer's block is a fancy term made up by whiners so they can have an excuse to drink alcohol." - Steve Martin
Harry Lime is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 02:53 PM   #6240
bax
First Line Centre
 
bax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Flash Walken View Post
It doesn't matter what the statistics are of drafting a mediocre player, drafting a Duncan Keith or Joe nieuwendyk or Patrice bergeron can change the course of your franchise for a decade or more.

That's the opportunity cost you're giving up by trading a valuable pick like that for a player with a career high of 16 points in 200+ games.

"It goes both ways" because the flames have Andersson is completely missing the point. The flames have Andersson because they used that pick instead of trading it away.

What if instead of just Andersson the flames had Kyrou and Formenton as well instead of one ####ty season from each of Elliott and Lazar? What if the flames could've moved one of those prospects for an actual good player last year or this year instead of walking away from BOTH of Elliott and Lazar without anything to show for it?

The lack of picks is a huge reason the flames can't ever make proactive trades for expiring players.

Can't move backlund for a haul of picks in his peak career season, instead need to re-sign him because there is no one on the horizon able to pick up the slack.

It wouldn't bother me so much if it didn't happen with every single flames gm since 2006. The only gm who was justified in doing it was Sutter because he had a team that went to the final and the next season win their division and the Jennings trophy. Sure, that's an actual contender you sell picks for.

Whatever possessed treliving to spend so many picks on such a bad roster is something I don't think I will ever understand.
Lazar I can agree with. Bad trade at the time. Elliot I am much more forgiving with though- The Flames needed a starting goalie and had nothing in the system. Grabbing Elliot was a decent gamble and was a minimal cost compared to the rumored asking prices of Bishop and Fleury. No way I would move Tkachuk for either of those guys.

Would be great to have a Kyrou or Formenton in the system, but we kind of do. Neither of those guys are contributing in the NHL yet. It's not like those guys are better prospects than Dube or Mangiapane. We are also have Gawdin, Phillips, and Pelletier developing really nicely not to mention Valimaki on the back end.
bax is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:06 PM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016