Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 12-02-2019, 12:15 PM   #6201
mrdonkey
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction View Post
Ottawa selecting Formenton in the Lazar trade sure is making that deal look bad.

This is exactly why you don’t make stupid trades for reclamation projects. The pick almost always has more chance of turning into a player than a “change of scenery” guy.
mrdonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 12:23 PM   #6202
HighLifeMan
Scoring Winger
 
HighLifeMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
This is exactly why you don’t make stupid trades for reclamation projects. The pick almost always has more chance of turning into a player than a “change of scenery” guy.
It was a bad deal from the get go simply due to the fact that even if Lazar panned out his upside was that of a third liner at best. If you do the appropriate scouting and projections then it can certainly make a ton of sense - but you absolutely must target player(s) with legitimate top six/four talent. Look no further than Colorado acquiring Andre Burakovsky this off-season for a 2nd and 3rd round pick. This is a player who has shown legitimate signs of a breakout with multiple 30 point campaigns. He now has 21 points in 24 games this season and is still only 24 years of age.
HighLifeMan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to HighLifeMan For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 12:25 PM   #6203
868904
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
This is exactly why you don’t make stupid trades for reclamation projects. The pick almost always has more chance of turning into a player than a “change of scenery” guy.
Burakovsky needed a change of scenery and it looks to have worked out. Todd Bertuzzi struggled for many years in NY before a change of scenery helped him realize his potential.

The following were waiver acquisitions but the point still stands. Martin St Louis, Paul Byron, Kristian Huselius.

There’s nothing wrong with trading for a reclamation project, you just have to trade for the right one.

Coach selection and pro scouting have been the weakest the part of Tre’s era. I don’t understand how the pro scouting can be this bad for so long. Especially since the amateur scouting has been pretty decent, surely there can be some crossover and synergies between the two?
__________________
Calgary Flames, PLEASE GO TO THE NET! AND SHOOT THE PUCK! GENERATING OFFENSE IS NOT DIFFICULT! SKATE HARD, SHOOT HARD, CRASH THE NET HARD!
868904 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to 868904 For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 12:26 PM   #6204
TOfan
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction View Post
Ottawa selecting Formenton in the Lazar trade sure is making that deal look bad.
Flames selecting Rasmus Anderson in the Bartschi trade is looking pretty good.

Goes both ways.
TOfan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 15 Users Say Thank You to TOfan For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 12:31 PM   #6205
TheScorpion
First round-bust
 
TheScorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Exp:
Default

Matthew Phillips was acquired for David Jones.

Heck, Glenn Gawdin and Ryan Lomberg... signed for free.

All of these guys have way more points than Formenton in the AHL.

Lots of reasons to be optimistic about the Flames' scouting.
__________________
the only monster on this bus is a lack of proper respect for the rules
TheScorpion is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to TheScorpion For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 12:33 PM   #6206
bax
First Line Centre
 
bax's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
This is exactly why you don’t make stupid trades for reclamation projects. The pick almost always has more chance of turning into a player than a “change of scenery” guy.
Agree that it was a bad trade, but Formenton really isn't anything special.
bax is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 12:35 PM   #6207
albertGQ
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 868904 View Post
Burakovsky needed a change of scenery and it looks to have worked out. Todd Bertuzzi struggled for many years in NY before a change of scenery helped him realize his potential.

The following were waiver acquisitions but the point still stands. Martin St Louis, Paul Byron, Kristian Huselius.

There’s nothing wrong with trading for a reclamation project, you just have to trade for the right one.

Coach selection and pro scouting have been the weakest the part of Tre’s era. I don’t understand how the pro scouting can be this bad for so long. Especially since the amateur scouting has been pretty decent, surely there can be some crossover and synergies between the two?
wasnt Huselius a trade (after going unclaimed on waivers)?
albertGQ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 12:50 PM   #6208
ricosuave
Threadkiller
 
ricosuave's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: 51.0544° N, 114.0669° W
Exp:
Default

^ yep
ricosuave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 12:59 PM   #6209
Mattman
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Mattman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: YYC
Exp:
Default

Montreal has lost 8 straight and Bergevin is in hot water.

I've watched a couple of these losses and scoring goals doesn't seem to be the problem as much as keeping in out of their end is. They need defense bad and center depth.

So if the Flames wanted to take advantage of this situation I think it could be big or small in improving both teams, and in specific a top 6 RW for Calgary in Gallagher.

You could go small and trade Jankowski, Frolik, Bennett, and some picks but it feels like we always trade too many high picks.

Or you could also go with Hamonic or Backlund as the main piece going back.

Jankowski + Hamonic + 3rd (maybe conditional 2nd if Hamonic stays)
for
Gallagher

Even more bold just a Backlund + for Gallagher
__________________
Mattman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Mattman For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 12:59 PM   #6210
dino7c
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
This is exactly why you don’t make stupid trades for reclamation projects. The pick almost always has more chance of turning into a player than a “change of scenery” guy.
Actually most 2nd rounders never play 100+ NHL games
__________________
#MakeTheFlamesGreatAgain
dino7c is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:01 PM   #6211
mrdonkey
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
Actually most 2nd rounders never play 100+ NHL games

Neither do most players with the upside of Curtis Lazar.
mrdonkey is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to mrdonkey For This Useful Post:
Old 12-02-2019, 01:05 PM   #6212
1qqaaz
First Line Centre
 
1qqaaz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Indiana
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
Actually most 2nd rounders never play 100+ NHL games
Actually, I believe the mean number of games played for a 2nd round pick is over 100.

Even the 2009 to 2011 drafts all average over 100 games for second round picks, and players drafted in those years aren't even 30 years old yet.

In fact, in 2011, only 13 players drafted in the second round haven't played 100 games.
1qqaaz is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:05 PM   #6213
dino7c
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
Neither do most players with the upside of Curtis Lazar.
The statement is wrong...Lazar is already ahead of "most 2nd rounders" he played 252 NHL games

Not saying I would make the trade
__________________
#MakeTheFlamesGreatAgain
dino7c is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:05 PM   #6214
Jiri Hrdina
Moderator
 
Jiri Hrdina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mrdonkey View Post
Neither do most players with the upside of Curtis Lazar.
I don't like the Lazar deal so not defending it.
But statements of fact like this, not backed up by actual information, are rightly challenged.
Change of scenery type of deals are valid strategies - but sometimes they work, sometimes they don't.
I haven't done the math to actually look at the average NHL games played of "change of scenery" players (would need to be defined) v. 2nd round picks. Would be an interesting analysis for sure.
Jiri Hrdina is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:10 PM   #6215
FlamesAddiction
Franchise Player
 
FlamesAddiction's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dino7c View Post
The statement is wrong...Lazar is already ahead of "most 2nd rounders" he played 252 NHL games

Not saying I would make the trade
I don’t really like games played as a measuring stick. The fact he was a first rounder bought him some extra goodwill. And weak players have a better chance of playing games on weak teams.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
FlamesAddiction is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:11 PM   #6216
dino7c
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Exp:
Default

44% of second rounders play 50+ NHL games are the statistics... sometimes you prefer the lottery ticket for sure but to say "almost all second rounders are better than Lazar" is wrong.
__________________
#MakeTheFlamesGreatAgain
dino7c is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:17 PM   #6217
---Hatrick---
Crash and Bang Winger
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Location: Red Deer
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mattman View Post
Montreal has lost 8 straight and Bergevin is in hot water.

I've watched a couple of these losses and scoring goals doesn't seem to be the problem as much as keeping in out of their end is. They need defense bad and center depth.

So if the Flames wanted to take advantage of this situation I think it could be big or small in improving both teams, and in specific a top 6 RW for Calgary in Gallagher.

You could go small and trade Jankowski, Frolik, Bennett, and some picks but it feels like we always trade too many high picks.

Or you could also go with Hamonic or Backlund as the main piece going back.

Jankowski + Hamonic + 3rd (maybe conditional 2nd if Hamonic stays)
for
Gallagher

Even more bold just a Backlund + for Gallagher
Except we need Center depth too.
All for going after Gallagher with Hamonic being the Center piece though
__________________
It was in.
---Hatrick--- is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:24 PM   #6218
ComixZone
Franchise Player
 
ComixZone's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Exp:
Default

I think the thing you have to target in reclamation projects is the raw skill.

Lazar didn't have the skill, but was supposed to be a leader/great person.

Elliott was always what he was, a fringe goalie that could never win an organization's top job.

Travis Hamonic's skillset was never top-end, but what skill he did have was accompanied by being a great human, and in-room intangibles.

I think I'm coming around to the mindset that "intangibles" are something you grow at home, and are 100% not things you should go into the market looking for - because you always pay a premium that looks to generally not be worth it. Stop trying to fly in guys who are great in the locker room, or "professionals" to set the example - these need to be foundations in your organization, and they won't just magically show up by introducing one guy here or there through free agency or trade. They start with your leadership group and coaching staff, and if you don't have what you think is necessary in those groups, then you don't have the foundation to build a good team on. Having that foundation is what allows teams to go out and add reclamation projects that have high levels of raw skill, because the train of thought has to be that it's your leadership group and coaching staff that will help unlock that skill and grow reclamation projects into effective members of the roster.

Last edited by ComixZone; 12-02-2019 at 01:26 PM.
ComixZone is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:29 PM   #6219
TheScorpion
First round-bust
 
TheScorpion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Canada
Exp:
Default

I'm curious to hear what people's thoughts are on bringing Brodie back. I've come around on the idea of an extension.

I think if the Flames sign Brodie to a deal, term should be the biggest consideration. I'd be a lot more comfortable with a 3- or 4-year deal at a higher salary, like $5.5ish million, than a 6-year deal, even if it is cheaper.

Signing Brodie and letting Hamonic, Frolik, Talbot, etc walk opens up plenty of cap space to extend Andersson to a long-term deal (the longer, the better in this case -- I'd even be ok with seeing the franchise's first 8-year deal) and would also likely allow the Flames to sign a mid-tier UFA to a reasonable deal.
__________________
the only monster on this bus is a lack of proper respect for the rules
TheScorpion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-02-2019, 01:35 PM   #6220
The Cobra
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Jun 2017
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheScorpion View Post
I'm curious to hear what people's thoughts are on bringing Brodie back. I've come around on the idea of an extension.

I think if the Flames sign Brodie to a deal, term should be the biggest consideration. I'd be a lot more comfortable with a 3- or 4-year deal at a higher salary, like $5.5ish million, than a 6-year deal, even if it is cheaper.

Signing Brodie and letting Hamonic, Frolik, Talbot, etc walk opens up plenty of cap space to extend Andersson to a long-term deal (the longer, the better in this case -- I'd even be ok with seeing the franchise's first 8-year deal) and would also likely allow the Flames to sign a mid-tier UFA to a reasonable deal.
Brodie will be looking for the longest term possible.

It's hard to believe that 3-4 years is the best he'll get.

Look what Tyler Myers just got, and he's not very good.
The Cobra is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:04 PM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016