Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 11-30-2019, 11:17 AM   #3581
Charsiu
Backup Goalie
 
Charsiu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Toronto
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy City View Post
All this AB government has done successfully thus far is pit public against private workers.

Never thought I'd see people saying "tough luck, deal with it" to people losing jobs. Regardless of the sector. Wow.
Yeah, it's a weird mentality. There's a callous disconnect that applies to both sides. You see it used by people who committed to climate change prevention against the oil workers and then in turn you see it used by the oil workers who've suffered.

It's all so divisive. Why can't Albertans (and Canadians as a whole) speak the language of inclusion and cooperation? I get why we should transition away from oil, but I don't think it should be at the expense of families and their livelihoods. It's easy to cast blame when you dehumanize an issue and politicize the people involved.
Charsiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 11:18 AM   #3582
Roughneck
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Roughneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the middle
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuzz View Post
I'm not sure what you mean by "Alberta is the richest province?" We have a pretty massive debt, and no prospect to see ti fixed any time soon.Yes, in the past we did well, but that isn't the case anymore, so I'd argue now is the time to revert to the mean.

Alberta's GDP per capita is about 30% higher than the mean. Our debt is in part because of the significantly lower taxes we pay compared to the mean. We could wipe out the deficit and still have the lowest taxes in the country. We'd still have the most employed province in the country with those people getting a higher average wage than the rest of the country. That's what I mean by being the richest province.
Roughneck is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to Roughneck For This Useful Post:
Old 11-30-2019, 11:39 AM   #3583
Charsiu
Backup Goalie
 
Charsiu's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Toronto
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Roughneck View Post
Alberta's GDP per capita is about 30% higher than the mean. Our debt is in part because of the significantly lower taxes we pay compared to the mean. We could wipe out the deficit and still have the lowest taxes in the country. We'd still have the most employed province in the country with those people getting a higher average wage than the rest of the country. That's what I mean by being the richest province.
Funnily enough, given the average wage of Albertans, a lot of people end up paying more in income taxes than citizens in other provinces do.

For example: Most recent StatsCan data shows that in 2015, Albertans made 62,778, in Alberta you're taxed a flat 10% up to 128,145. So taxes in AB would be $6,277.

In BC, you'd be taxed 5.06% on the first 39, 676 (2007) and then 7.7% on the remaining 23,102. This is a total of $3785. This is a difference of $2492!.

I know this is an overly simplistic way of looking at things but I'm sure there would be a way to keep wages high and lower taxes for middle class people.
Charsiu is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 11:40 AM   #3584
iggy_oi
First Line Centre
 
iggy_oi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois View Post
Itís what, 2% 1%?
If in your opinion 1-2% isnít a very large number of individuals to put the screws to it makes one wonder how you can use it as an excuse support a government when they are doing it to working class people who probably canít afford it while the same government is giving tax breaks to businesses owned by a similar percentage of the population who didnít need it. Oh well.

Quote:
And many of those jobs wonít be cut. Theyíll simply move to the private sector where 100% of the work can be done by fewer people at lower cost.
And where someone(who may or may not even reside in Alberta) can profit off the service by owning it as a business. Letís not kid ourselves here, that is the goal of the UCP. (Lower paying) JOBS! (Lower paying) JOBS! (Lower paying) JOBS

Quote:
The only loser here is the unions.
I guess you see the 6000 people losing their jobs as winners? To be honest, IMO thatís a little concerning.

Quote:
The only growth industry in the province for the last 4 years.
I canít tell whether you mean healthcare or unions, but in either case youíd be wrong.

Quote:
They loved being in power and boy are they pissed now.
Youíre kidding yourself if you believe that unions are the only ones who disapprove of the UCPís actions to date. A lot of Albertans are starting to realize that maintaining services they rely on and updating our employment laws to try and bring them in line with what they look like for the the rest of country isnít so bad when compared with reducing services while putting even more people out of work and going backwards socially. Especially since the debt looks like itís going to be worse after all these UCP ďefficienciesĒ are implemented anyways.
iggy_oi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 12:39 PM   #3585
WhiteTiger
Franchise Player
 
WhiteTiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy City View Post
All this AB government has done successfully thus far is pit public against private workers.

Never thought I'd see people saying "tough luck, deal with it" to people losing jobs. Regardless of the sector. Wow.
This your first 'bust' cycle? Every time there is a bust, the private sector come howling for public sector wages, after the private sector has been living high on the hog.
WhiteTiger is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to WhiteTiger For This Useful Post:
Old 11-30-2019, 12:44 PM   #3586
Tyler
Franchise Player
 
Tyler's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Calgary, AB
Exp:
Default

Crabs in the bucket man. Really disheartening to see.
Tyler is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 12:55 PM   #3587
Slava
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Calgary, Alberta
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Iggy City View Post
All this AB government has done successfully thus far is pit public against private workers.

Never thought I'd see people saying "tough luck, deal with it" to people losing jobs. Regardless of the sector. Wow.
Unfortunately, it's not new. When it was automatically workers in Ontario there were plenty of people with that attitude. When it was energy sector workers here, we heard that both from other provinces as well as here. It's hardly uncommon to see the sentiment along the lines of "we won't need fossil fuel, so come to grips with the fact that you're going to be unemployed". It goes without saying that when people hear that kind of sentiment they're not particularly compassionate to other people facing cuts.
Slava is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 02:49 PM   #3588
Aarongavey
First Line Centre
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charsiu View Post
Funnily enough, given the average wage of Albertans, a lot of people end up paying more in income taxes than citizens in other provinces do.

For example: Most recent StatsCan data shows that in 2015, Albertans made 62,778, in Alberta you're taxed a flat 10% up to 128,145. So taxes in AB would be $6,277.

In BC, you'd be taxed 5.06% on the first 39, 676 (2007) and then 7.7% on the remaining 23,102. This is a total of $3785. This is a difference of $2492!.

I know this is an overly simplistic way of looking at things but I'm sure there would be a way to keep wages high and lower taxes for middle class people.
Sure poorer people and middle income people pay lower tax in BC and Ontario than in Alberta. But the wealthy pay significantly more in those provinces, so it evens out. The poor and middle income folks pay a little more so the affluent can get a tax break.
Aarongavey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 04:20 PM   #3589
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aarongavey View Post
Sure poorer people and middle income people pay lower tax in BC and Ontario than in Alberta. But the wealthy pay significantly more in those provinces, so it evens out. The poor and middle income folks pay a little more so the affluent can get a tax break.
One thing to consider though is the personal exemption. In Alberta itís 18500 and BC itís 10,0000. So a single parent making 37,000 pays no tax in Alberta vs $1000 in BC.

For single earners without dependants the break even point between Alberta and BC is about 30k. So the lowest income people in Alberta pay less tax then anywhere else in Canada.

Youíd have to go wage by wage and situation by situation BC and Alberta to get the true picture.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
Old 11-30-2019, 04:20 PM   #3590
longsuffering
First Line Centre
 
longsuffering's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI View Post
Its pretty self explanatory. Private sector jobs aren't considered "essential services" so the woke Lefties don't care when jobs are lost.

I don't feel any sympathy for public sector cuts, tough break, deal with it.
Well hopefully for you then you won't have to utilize AHS services, especially for a serious illness/surgery. The front line workers at hospitals are already spread far too thin and lowering the number of nurses will only make the situation worse.

But we're saving money!!!! Penny wise Pound foolish.
longsuffering is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 04:44 PM   #3591
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Honestly this situation just further demonstrates the need for parallel private sector options for healthcare.
peter12 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to peter12 For This Useful Post:
Old 11-30-2019, 05:00 PM   #3592
Roughneck
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Roughneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the middle
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Honestly this situation just further demonstrates the need for parallel private sector options for healthcare.

Such is the design.



Just like putting the squeeze on education while there are whispers (or straight up shouts) for a voucher system.
Roughneck is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Roughneck For This Useful Post:
Old 11-30-2019, 05:11 PM   #3593
Mr.Coffee
damn onions
 
Mr.Coffee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Charsiu View Post
Wait a second. BC and Quebec are at fault for plunging oil prices and Kenney's subsequent decision to cut front line medical professional jobs?

How about the obstinate refusal to diversify the economy?
Q1, yes, and if it wasnít Kenney itíd be some other government or some other person making tough decisions.

Q2. I agree with you 100% we should be diversifying and the UCPís refusal to keep diversification on track is idiotic. But I definitely donít think that would bridge the financial gap required within any reasonable timeframe to prevent any of these cuts. Do you?
Mr.Coffee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-30-2019, 11:32 PM   #3594
kermitology
It's not easy being green!
 
kermitology's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the tubes
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Honestly this situation just further demonstrates the need for parallel private sector options for healthcare.


All thatís going to do is drive up the cost of healthcare as it becomes increasingly for profit. Same with education. Look south and see the disaster that is healthcare and education in the US. You might have good quality service, but you will pay dearly for it. It will only deepen the divid between the wealthy and the not wealthy.
__________________
Who are the people in charge of this product and why haven't they been fired?
kermitology is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 12:06 AM   #3595
Puckbag
Draft Pick
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kermitology View Post
All thatís going to do is drive up the cost of healthcare as it becomes increasingly for profit. Same with education. Look south and see the disaster that is healthcare and education in the US. You might have good quality service, but you will pay dearly for it. It will only deepen the divid between the wealthy and the not wealthy.
Honest question, why does everyone seem to think our health care options are either status quo or the demonized American system? Do people realize that there are hybrid systems of public and private that work quite well in a large part of Western Europe?

There are ways to improve health care that donít need to be fully universal or fully private.
Puckbag is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 12 Users Say Thank You to Puckbag For This Useful Post:
Old 12-01-2019, 12:19 AM   #3596
Roughneck
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Roughneck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
Location: the middle
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckbag
Honest question, why does everyone seem to think our health care options are either status quo or the demonized American system? Do people realize that there are hybrid systems of public and private that work quite well in a large part of Western Europe?
The UCP definitely isn't looking at options like Western Europe, they've only got people from the system down south whispering in their ears wanting to make money here.


There might be an Alberta conservative government out there one day that could navigate those nuanced waters, but with this one if it isn't religiously driven (school funding, desire for school vouchers) or private interest driven (private healthcare contracts, tax cuts for biggest earners) then they don't want to know about it.
Roughneck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 01:29 AM   #3597
Mean Mr. Mustard
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wiggum_PI View Post
Its pretty self explanatory. Private sector jobs aren't considered "essential services" so the woke Lefties don't care when jobs are lost.

I don't feel any sympathy for public sector cuts, tough break, deal with it.
You have the mindset of a petulant child - no one was celebrating when your job was lost. Trust me, I saw the effects of it. I saw the increase in suicides at the hospitals, I saw the people with increased rates of addictions and the pain that the downturn in the economy caused. I saw people's livelihoods taken from them, with their source of pride snatched away from them. I didn't go home and celebrate or tell people, tough break - deal with it.

I had empathy, understanding, and compassion - because that is what people do. You on the other hand hear about people losing their jobs and you somehow have an apparent overwhelming glee, which is absolutely sickening.

FYI - cutting essential services (health care is an essential service by the way as it is required for people to literally live) won't bring your job back, nor will it make you happier.
Mean Mr. Mustard is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 02:37 AM   #3598
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kermitology View Post
All thatís going to do is drive up the cost of healthcare as it becomes increasingly for profit. Same with education. Look south and see the disaster that is healthcare and education in the US. You might have good quality service, but you will pay dearly for it. It will only deepen the divid between the wealthy and the not wealthy.
Classic Canadian strawman. We need to look to Europe or Australia for solutions. Americans are the toxic bogeyman in this important discussion over reform.
peter12 is online now   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to peter12 For This Useful Post:
Old 12-01-2019, 08:17 AM   #3599
kermitology
It's not easy being green!
 
kermitology's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: In the tubes
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
Classic Canadian strawman. We need to look to Europe or Australia for solutions. Americans are the toxic bogeyman in this important discussion over reform.


The voucher system is what is happening in the US with charter schools. They arenít looking elsewhere, theyíre looking south.
__________________
Who are the people in charge of this product and why haven't they been fired?
kermitology is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2019, 09:36 AM   #3600
Amethyst
Powerplay Quarterback
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Puckbag View Post
Honest question, why does everyone seem to think our health care options are either status quo or the demonized American system? Do people realize that there are hybrid systems of public and private that work quite well in a large part of Western Europe?

There are ways to improve health care that donít need to be fully universal or fully private.
Honest question, do you think the UCP has any interest in looking at European systems?
Amethyst is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:09 PM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016