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Old 11-30-2019, 09:35 AM   #3561
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Part of the problem is the bleeting from the unions about a 5% pay cut. They’re certainly not going to get a whole lot of sympathy from Albertans who have already received 10 to 20% (or more) pay cuts back in 2015/2016.
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Old 11-30-2019, 09:58 AM   #3562
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Will be interesting to see how they plan on privatizing EMS and saving money
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:03 AM   #3563
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Wife is an RN. I sympathize. I don’t want to see anybody ever lose jobs, ever.

Only comment here is that public workers should think about pointing the finger at the right culprits. At the end of the day this is not an NDP or UCP problem really, it’s BC and Quebec being complete buffoons. Now the public sector is predictably catching what the private sector has been seeing for a couple years now.

No government can overcome selling your resources for bargain bin pricing because the rest of this “country” wants to punish us and work against us. THAT is what is happening. People in Quebec and BC making this province suffer.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:08 AM   #3564
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...says-1.5378566

This type of a move is insane to me. These are the types of jobs you need MORE of, not less in times of austerity.

Cuts to education and preventive medicine will increase the long term costs of frontline medical treatment. Not sure who this benefits. I mean what does it matter if the province isn't running a deficit when living standards drop?
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:09 AM   #3565
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When BC and Quebec looks at the province with the highest wages, highest employment, and lowest taxes saying they're "suffering" because of them, I don't think you're going to gain much sympathy from them.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:11 AM   #3566
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Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
Wife is an RN. I sympathize. I don’t want to see anybody ever lose jobs, ever.

Only comment here is that public workers should think about pointing the finger at the right culprits. At the end of the day this is not an NDP or UCP problem really, it’s BC and Quebec being complete buffoons. Now the public sector is predictably catching what the private sector has been seeing for a couple years now.

No government can overcome selling your resources for bargain bin pricing because the rest of this “country” wants to punish us and work against us. THAT is what is happening. People in Quebec and BC making this province suffer.
Wait a second. BC and Quebec are at fault for plunging oil prices and Kenney's subsequent decision to cut front line medical professional jobs?

How about the obstinate refusal to diversify the economy?
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:15 AM   #3567
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https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmon...says-1.5378566

This type of a move is insane to me. These are the types of jobs you need MORE of, not less in times of austerity.

Cuts to education and preventive medicine will increase the long term costs of frontline medical treatment. Not sure who this benefits. I mean what does it matter if the province isn't running a deficit when living standards drop?
You should quote the actual letter from the government to the union rather than the messaging from the union designed to create alarm.

https://www.aupe.org/sites/default/f...Bargaining.pdf

For example they expect to eliminate 200 FTEs by implementing best practices in areas that haven’t been completed. Now there is risk that this letter is political bull#### and they are going to directly cut frontline workers but to me that letter is doing exactly what “we” asked the government to do. Review practices, find efficiencies, and deliver services better.

This is night and day difference to how they handled the teachers which I agree was horrible.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:17 AM   #3568
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Living in rural Alberta I’m surrounded by UPC supporters that are happy nurses, teachers, and other public servants are losing jobs. To me that is a sickening attitude but that’s just me.

Last edited by Dynamic; 11-30-2019 at 10:22 AM.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:18 AM   #3569
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For everyone comparing these public sector cuts to private sector job losses, remember there's a big difference. Let's say you're in the oilfield service industry, and you lost your job. Why did you lose your job? Probably because there were less wells being drilled... There was less work to do.

The same is not true in the public service. There are still the same number of students to teach, the same number of patients to treat. More, actually... There's something like 1500 more students in Alberta this year. So when you cut teachers in that situation, you're asking less people to do more work.

Make no mistake, these cuts will impact services. You kids will have bigger classrooms. Your grandmother is going to see a nurse less often when she's in a hospital bed.

It's not the same.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:34 AM   #3570
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Originally Posted by GGG View Post
You should quote the actual letter from the government to the union rather than the messaging from the union designed to create alarm.

https://www.aupe.org/sites/default/f...Bargaining.pdf

For example they expect to eliminate 200 FTEs by implementing best practices in areas that haven’t been completed. Now there is risk that this letter is political bull#### and they are going to directly cut frontline workers but to me that letter is doing exactly what “we” asked the government to do. Review practices, find efficiencies, and deliver services better.

This is night and day difference to how they handled the teachers which I agree was horrible.
Thanks for posting the letter. Having read it, I'd say there are still some points that are cause for concern for the province. The OBP initiative to cut the 200 nurses could probably have a good case made for it, but the transition towards contract positions for Nursing, Palliative and Peds care is a bit alarming, this culture of privatization will only balloon costs down the road, particularly with the trends fertility rates continuing to fall and life expectancies increasing.

I like the idea of spreading treatment options to non hospital facilities, but am concerned about the line to "close acute care beds as continuing care beds open." I get that acute care is much more costly but shouldn't the focus be to streamline the care process rather than make cuts to a shrinking resource? This will only increase the so-called problem of "Hallway Healthcare" that politicians parrot when they are looking to make budget cuts.

Anyway, thanks for giving me something more substantive to read.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:36 AM   #3571
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So when you cut teachers in that situation, you're asking less people to do more work.

Sponsors, streamline, and automate; gotta find those efficiencies.



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Old 11-30-2019, 10:37 AM   #3572
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^^Everyone understands that. But maybe you do not understand that the nurse and teacher is payed by the taxes that the oil rig worker pays into the system. It’s a synergy and the money has to come from somewhere.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:39 AM   #3573
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For everyone comparing these public sector cuts to private sector job losses, remember there's a big difference. Let's say you're in the oilfield service industry, and you lost your job. Why did you lose your job? Probably because there were less wells being drilled... There was less work to do.

The same is not true in the public service. There are still the same number of students to teach, the same number of patients to treat. More, actually... There's something like 1500 more students in Alberta this year. So when you cut teachers in that situation, you're asking less people to do more work.

Make no mistake, these cuts will impact services. You kids will have bigger classrooms. Your grandmother is going to see a nurse less often when she's in a hospital bed.

It's not the same.
Totally agree. Not to mention the correlations between lower rates of education and higher medical costs.

Larger classrooms means less focus on the student. Higher university costs means less families and students can afford to go. A less educated population means people are more likely to go into higher risk work that are more likely to injure them.

When you pass the cost of healthcare onto the user, you'll cut access by way of affordability, meaning less people can seek treatment.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:45 AM   #3574
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I see both sides of the argument, but where it gets muddy for me is that we pay more for health and education than the Canadian average, and that can only make me wonder why that is? Surely would should be able to hit the average. I don't buy the cost of living argument at all. Housing is far more expensive in other Canadian cities, and we have no PST and lower personal taxes and property taxes. Energy costs are cheaper as well. So the cost of living argument doesn't fly for me at all, unless you can show facts to counter my generalizations...



So what is it about Alberta that makes our public service more expensive? If we are overpaying wages, then the public service should accept cuts to be in line with the rest of Canada. If it is administration, well sort that out. Do we have to many staff per user? Figure out where are key differences are and get it in line. This shouldn't be so hard, and should, in theory, be acceptable to everyone.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:55 AM   #3575
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I see both sides of the argument, but where it gets muddy for me is that we pay more for health and education than the Canadian average, and that can only make me wonder why that is? Surely would should be able to hit the average. I don't buy the cost of living argument at all. Housing is far more expensive in other Canadian cities, and we have no PST and lower personal taxes and property taxes. Energy costs are cheaper as well. So the cost of living argument doesn't fly for me at all, unless you can show facts to counter my generalizations...



So what is it about Alberta that makes our public service more expensive? If we are overpaying wages, then the public service should accept cuts to be in line with the rest of Canada. If it is administration, well sort that out. Do we have to many staff per user? Figure out where are key differences are and get it in line. This shouldn't be so hard, and should, in theory, be acceptable to everyone.
One aspect is/was competition from the private sector. This isn’t true for nursing or teaching where competition is limited but certainly true for all the administrative positions within the government.
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Old 11-30-2019, 10:56 AM   #3576
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So what is it about Alberta that makes our public service more expensive? If we are overpaying wages, then the public service should accept cuts to be in line with the rest of Canada.

Why the rest of Canada? The cost of living isn't the same. The competitiveness isn't the same. Alberta is the richest province and grew the fastest in the country, it would make sense we'd have the higher paid public sector as well.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:03 AM   #3577
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^^Everyone understands that. But maybe you do not understand that the nurse and teacher is payed by the taxes that the oil rig worker pays into the system. It’s a synergy and the money has to come from somewhere.
We all understand that the nurses and teachers are paid by taxpayer money, but why is the thought of a higher tax rate or a sales tax, or a carbon tax anathema to Albertans? If it were up to me, I'd rather pay a few percent higher than lose essential services.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:05 AM   #3578
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Why the rest of Canada? The cost of living isn't the same. The competitiveness isn't the same. Alberta is the richest province and grew the fastest in the country, it would make sense we'd have the higher paid public sector as well.
Like I pointed out, the cost of living should be cheaper. I'm not sure what you mean by "Alberta is the richest province?" We have a pretty massive debt, and no prospect to see ti fixed any time soon. Yes, in the past we did well, but that isn't the case anymore, so I'd argue now is the time to revert to the mean.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:06 AM   #3579
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Why the rest of Canada? The cost of living isn't the same. The competitiveness isn't the same. Alberta is the richest province and grew the fastest in the country, it would make sense we'd have the higher paid public sector as well.

By that logic it also makes sense to cut when those metrics retreat.
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Old 11-30-2019, 11:08 AM   #3580
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All this AB government has done successfully thus far is pit public against private workers.

Never thought I'd see people saying "tough luck, deal with it" to people losing jobs. Regardless of the sector. Wow.
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