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Old 11-05-2019, 05:41 PM   #2661
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A PST is a tax on spending. I don't disagree with a PST, it's likely required and we shouldn't collectively groan at it - but who are we taking that tax from? The people without jobs, or the people with jobs but don't make enough to sustain the current real estate market? As jobs continue to shrivel, how do we attract companies to stay here or come here so that we can get/keep people employed so that the PST can actually make an impact?
You ask the question about attracting companies and getting them to stay but then ignore the fact that UCP cut tax credits for innovation and technology. The current government gives tax breaks to big oil friends and continues to prioritize that industry over diversification (and this isn’t an attack on the oil sector) but rather the hypocrisy shown by the government.

You’re spot on though, what is it going to take to get these companies to stay or invest in Alberta? I would say this is counter productive.

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Old 11-05-2019, 05:41 PM   #2662
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gotta rip the band-aid off vs slowly peeling it back
Shock the system already undergoing critical trauma.
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Old 11-05-2019, 05:46 PM   #2663
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You ask the question about attracting companies and getting them to stay but then ignore the fact that UCP cut tax credits for innovation and technology. The current government gives tax breaks to big oil friends and continues to prioritize that industry over diversification (and this isn’t an attack on the oil sector) but rather the hypocrisy shown by the government.

Your spot on though, what is it going to take to get these companies to stay or invest in Alberta? I would say this is counter productive.
It's incredibly tough - because a province with a failing economy won't be viewed as a hot spot to settle down for a company looking to start a new office, particularly because our cost of living hasn't really adjusted to our depressed economy. Whether we like it or not, I feel like we have to double down on the industry we have now, stop the bleeding, and then if we get that to a point where our tax base is healthy and money is coming in, we then have to spend that money a hell of a lot better than we have historically, with tax credits and breaks to all sorts of new industries, and of course do our best at this right now as well.

There is no "rip the band aid off" fix, and it's really tough for any one city or province to just diversify at any point, let alone during a significant recession.
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Old 11-05-2019, 05:59 PM   #2664
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It's incredibly tough - because a province with a failing economy won't be viewed as a hot spot to settle down for a company looking to start a new office, particularly because our cost of living hasn't really adjusted to our depressed economy. Whether we like it or not, I feel like we have to double down on the industry we have now, stop the bleeding, and then if we get that to a point where our tax base is healthy and money is coming in, we then have to spend that money a hell of a lot better than we have historically, with tax credits and breaks to all sorts of new industries, and of course do our best at this right now as well.

There is no "rip the band aid off" fix, and it's really tough for any one city or province to just diversify at any point, let alone during a significant recession.
I just really wonder when I read posts this like what I'm missing. I get we are doubling and tripling down on O&G but as demonstrated this week these upcoming massive tax breaks (that will make Alberta the lowest tax in the country) aren't enough to keep businesses here already. It's a very complicated solution, and maxing out our credit cards for the hope we can attract business seems foolhardy.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:01 PM   #2665
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You didn't propose a solution, rather just spoke to what you believe are UCP negatives.

What would be the alternative? What's your actual solution? This province is in trouble, and positive economic momentum is crucial to getting us back on track to being able to properly sustain our population with the services that we (rightfully or wrongfully) expect.

I don't care about the NDP budget. I don't care what came before right now. Yes we have to look to the past and learn from it, and diversifying the economy is an absolute need - but that will take years upon years upon years of work and massive tax benefits if not outright cash infusion from the government to get there. Where do we start though?
1)The War room costs would basically cover what they cut from CBE.

2)The UCP is actively hostile to diversifying our economy. They have destroyed the incentives for the film industry, gaming industry, and the X games, all while expecting tourism to more than double in a decade as they cut their funding, too.

3)All but cancelling the Green line is a job destroyer. Think of all the trades, engineers, etc that could have been employed when they need it most.

4)(relating to your other post) A PST is not a tax on poor people. You refund it, like the GST. It's a consumption tax on those who can afford it.

I used to think the NDP had no clue what they were doing, but then the UCP stepped up and asked the NDP to hold their beer.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:05 PM   #2666
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Until we fix the export problem a corporate tax break cannot create investment in the oil industry. Production is fixed right now so any money generated from the tax break goes into debt / dividend / or buyback. I don’t see the benefit a corporate break does for more investment in Alberta Oil.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:11 PM   #2667
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Good and hard.
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:13 PM   #2668
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Seriously, where does Cliff Fletcher get his information from?
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Old 11-05-2019, 06:43 PM   #2669
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What's a feasible alternative?

Our economy is crumbling.

People seem to be angry that the UCP is giving/looking to give tax breaks to companies in order to spark economic development in an environment where we're struggling to hold onto what we have as it is, but what is the alternative? Diversify our economy? Well, that's not an easy task and guess what it? It takes massive tax breaks to bring in new companies and new industries. It's all about money.

As our tax base shrinks with our economy, what is the government supposed to do? Just rack up debt endlessly?

I'm not looking to antagonize you, but I'm genuinely intrigued as to what else you think could be done other than scaling back services and attempting to spark economic growth while trying to keep what we do have. I have a number of friends who are teachers who will undoubtedly be impacted by this, but they're all actually quite understanding while also being incredibly frustrated, but they aren't blaming the UCP for this.

This is just a bad time for Alberta, there is no quick fix.
Totally agree. There's no big red "Diversify Economy" button sitting in the Legislature that successive Premiers have just not bothered to push. The UCP have correctly identified the fact the O&G is this Province's meal ticket going forward, it's literally the only sector we have a competitive advantage in. That can bother you, you can wish we had more tech or finance or healthcare or transportation logistics, certainly I do, but it's reality, deal with it. Has anyone taken one second to have a good look around us geographically and see what's out there? Manitoba, Sask, North and South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Idaho, all of BC except for Vancouver. Those places aren't exactly economic powerhouses driving a lot of investment and growth creation, and there's very good physical geography reasons for that that Alberta unfortunately shares with all of them with one glaring exception in the form of energy. There's a reason Calgary and Edmonton are the largest cities for thousands of kilometers in any direction. There's a reason Alberta is more populous than any great plains states or Provinces besides Colorado and Texas, and it's not because of boutique tax credits for Ghostbusters 5. Any path towards diversification is going to have to come off the back of low corporate taxes backed by resource revenues (ie our only competitive advantage on coastal areas we are competing with), which is dependent on market access and trying to signal to the only remaining large corporations we have left that we're at least trying to keep this basin competitive with others. You can frame that as corporate handjobs or any other sophomoric metaphor you want but it's reality. We get more EnCana's, which could happen, government revenue declines much further and we're suddenly talking about more than the 2% cut we just had which was apparently so catastrophic. There's nothing special about Alberta besides oil. Big tech companies are not going to move to this outpost just because we ask them nicely, this is reality.

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Old 11-05-2019, 06:49 PM   #2670
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Or we we put all of our eggs in one basket, lose the encanas and huskies and are double hosed

Why hedge your bets on an industry the federal government of any flavour seems to be bent on destroying. Seems a little silly to me. We basically are getting check raised while bluffing and going all in. It’s insane
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:08 PM   #2671
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:22 PM   #2672
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Or we we put all of our eggs in one basket, lose the encanas and huskies and are double hosed

Why hedge your bets on an industry the federal government of any flavour seems to be bent on destroying. Seems a little silly to me. We basically are getting check raised while bluffing and going all in. It’s insane
How are we double hosed. We continue to lose companies like that we are fully hosed. Are they less likely to leave when you Jack the tax rate on them like the NDP did? To be “putting our eggs in one basket” like you claim they’d have to be preventing profitable, tax paying enterprises from setting up in the province in favour of oil and gas. Is that happening, can you point me to said enterprises? To use your poker analogy we’re playing the only hand we have, which is energy, that’s my point we dont have any other hands. Unless again you can point me to private companies willing to come here. People love to just bleat “eggs in one basket!!!” without ever pointing to the alternative, the needed alternative. What is it?
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:27 PM   #2673
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How are we double hosed. We continue to lose companies like that we are fully hosed. Are they less likely to leave when you Jack the tax rate on them like the NDP did? To be “putting our eggs in one basket” like you claim they’d have to be preventing profitable, tax paying enterprises from setting up in the province in favour of oil and gas. Is that happening, can you point me to said enterprises? To use your poker analogy we’re playing the only hand we have, which is energy, that’s my point we dont have any other hands. Unless again you can point me to private companies willing to come here. People love to just bleat “eggs in one basket!!!” without ever pointing to the alternative, the needed alternative. What is it?
I have to think you're willfully ignoring stories that have been posted here, in favour of engaging in an ideological masturbatory stand off. The AB film industry, tech industry, are all being shown the door. But ya, no, #### them right?
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:36 PM   #2674
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I have to think you're willfully ignoring stories that have been posted here, in favour of engaging in an ideological masturbatory stand off. The AB film industry, tech industry, are all being shown the door. But ya, no, #### them right?
No I’d love them to stay, that’s why I support a corporate tax cut to entice them to stay and grow here. How are they being shown the door?
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:41 PM   #2675
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Guys, we’re just going to get a bunch of pipelines approved and everything will be great. Stay the course! Stay the course!

Seriously, if we have to invent the alternative to O&G, it’ll be a better investment of time and money than this “stay the course” nonsense full of poorly thought out corporate handouts and holding our dicks waiting for export capacity.

Any remotely logical person would tell you that if the cards are stacked against something, then you’d be an idiot to push all your chips in on that one thing. Oil and gas isn’t coming back like it was. Get over it. Let’s use our brains and start putting one foot in front of the other towards whatever future we got.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:43 PM   #2676
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No I’d love them to stay, that’s why I support a corporate tax cut to entice them to stay and grow here. How are they being shown the door?
Cancelled tax credits. Look it up. Really dude?
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:48 PM   #2677
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Cancelled tax credits. Look it up. Really dude?
You’re the one making the claim not me bro. How do those compare to the tax cut they also got? Since you’re the big cheerleader and all shouldn’t be hard to tell me.
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Old 11-05-2019, 07:57 PM   #2678
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You’re the one making the claim not me bro. How do those compare to the tax cut they also got? Since you’re the big cheerleader and all shouldn’t be hard to tell me.
Dude, there were like five tax credits specifically designed to encourage investment in our sectors like tech by providing investors with a 30% tax credit. A corporate tax cut does not help new businesses that are years away from turning profit, getting investors does.

But you know all this. We’ve discussed it. Why are you pretending this is the first you’re hearing of it?
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:12 PM   #2679
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Dude, there were like five tax credits specifically designed to encourage investment in our sectors like tech by providing investors with a 30% tax credit. A corporate tax cut does not help new businesses that are years away from turning profit, getting investors does.

But you know all this. We’ve discussed it. Why are you pretending this is the first you’re hearing of it?
I’ve been out of country for a while having too much fun to make myself depressed reading this thread. Your point about tax credits being better for new unprofitable companies is well taken. It sounds like the UCP is counting on the corporate tax rate to be more of a blanket solution for greater overall economic stimulation than boutique targeted tax credits. The Herald article on this I just read said that 100,000 companies are expected to benefit from the corporate tax cut vs 1500 from tax credits. Is that better long term? Maybe, maybe not. I still don’t see how it’s showing those sectors the door in any way though. Reasonable people can disagree on that.
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Old 11-05-2019, 08:15 PM   #2680
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Not going to lie, I am 100% in favour of widespread tax breaks over targeted tax credits.
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