Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 11-04-2019, 09:12 PM   #2621
White Out 403
Franchise Player
 
White Out 403's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

I don't see value in participating in arguments with bad faith participants. Unions are the devil here, the tool of commies.
__________________
How 'bout them Bombers??

Last edited by White Out 403; 11-04-2019 at 09:17 PM.
White Out 403 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 09:17 PM   #2622
Dion
Not a casual user
 
Dion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
I really have no idea whatsoever what that has to do with what peter12 was talking about.

When is the employer not allowed to express their views?
I’m going to go ahead and guess that you’re unaware that an employer has a legal right ask for a board supervised re-vote if they feel as though an offer wasn’t presented fairly or honestly by the union.

Also it’s cute that you’re concerned about “biased info” being given to employees by their union and using it as an argument for why their employer should be able to have more of a say during a vote as if their employer would have no bias whatsoever. Are you trying to argue that there’s no reason for their employer to present an offer in a biased manner?
Employers should have the right to rent a large room where they can present their side of the offer directly to the employees. It was done once in the early 90's IIRC, when Safeway threatened shut all of it's Alberta stores if the unions and employees didn't give concessions in wages and other perks. It was in some hotel ball room. In the end we gave the company the concessions they wanted.

If it's second hand info, it can be twisted to support a point of view. All I'm saying is give the employer equal say during an negotiation.
__________________
Dion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 09:18 PM   #2623
Dion
Not a casual user
 
Dion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by White Out 403 View Post
I don't see value in participating in arguments with bad faith participants. Unions are the devil here, the tool of commies.
You said it, not me.
__________________
Dion is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Dion For This Useful Post:
Old 11-04-2019, 09:28 PM   #2624
White Out 403
Franchise Player
 
White Out 403's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Exp:
Default

You aren't from Ontario are you? Ex accountant?
__________________
How 'bout them Bombers??
White Out 403 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 09:48 PM   #2625
iggy_oi
First Line Centre
 
iggy_oi's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion View Post
Employers should have the right to rent a large room where they can present their side of the offer directly to the employees. It was done once in the early 90's IIRC, when Safeway threatened shut all of it's Alberta stores if the unions and employees didn't give concessions in wages and other perks. It was in some hotel ball room. In the end we gave the company the concessions they wanted.
So they can do it is what you’re saying?

The offer is the employer’s say on the matter Dion.

Quote:
If it's second hand info, it can be twisted to support a point of view. All I'm saying is give the employer equal say during an negotiation.
Second hand info? The union reads the agreement as it’s written. Do you not realize there are ramifications if a union were to try and misrepresent anything in an offer?
iggy_oi is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to iggy_oi For This Useful Post:
Old 11-04-2019, 10:13 PM   #2626
flamingred89
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Exp:
Default

Urban legend suggests that if you say the word “union” 3 times in front of a mirror, that Iggy_oi will appear and kick you in the d#ck.
flamingred89 is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to flamingred89 For This Useful Post:
Old 11-04-2019, 10:17 PM   #2627
Red Potato Standing By
Scoring Winger
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Exp:
Default

Yeah I am not sure what benefit the union would have not giving the offer as it is presented by the employer. If the members vote it in and it turns out that isn’t what the employer actually offered someone would be in trouble. And if the union does mislead there members to get them to sign on well they can be voted out just as fast if the workers feel wronged.
Red Potato Standing By is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-04-2019, 11:25 PM   #2628
Dion
Not a casual user
 
Dion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: A simple man leading a complicated life....
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by iggy_oi View Post
So they can do it is what you’re saying?
Is there an echo in here??? The union for whatever reason decided it was a good idea. You'll have to ask union boss Doug O'Halloran but unfortunately he passed away.

It never happened before or after that. In fact the rule was the employer couldn't directly talk to the employee or pass on any info on their offer. All management was forbidden to talk with the employees about the offer.

Quote:
Second hand info? The union reads the agreement as it’s written. Do you not realize there are ramifications if a union were to try and misrepresent anything in an offer?
But they can add their spin to the offer and twist it to serve their purpose. Plus the employer can't offer what they believe to be benefits of that offer and why the employee should take it. Nope. All you get is a pep rally before the vote where O'Halloran can whip his members in to the right frame of mine as to how they should vote. Not hearsay either as I witnessed the above in 1997.
__________________
Dion is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 07:51 AM   #2629
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12 View Post
...in the face of ever-increasing budget cuts etc...
Education funding per student increased 17 per cent in the least 10 years alone (adjusted for inflation).

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...in-canada-2019

Like health care, we spend more and more on education every decade.
Seriously, where are people getting their news from if they think we're actually spending less money on these services?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 08:30 AM   #2630
PepsiFree
Participant
Participant
 
PepsiFree's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Education funding per student increased 17 per cent in the least 10 years alone (adjusted for inflation).

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...in-canada-2019

Like health care, we spend more and more on education every decade.
Seriously, where are people getting their news from if they think we're actually spending less money on these services?
Your own link says enrolment in Alberta went up 13% while funding only increased 8%.
PepsiFree is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to PepsiFree For This Useful Post:
Old 11-05-2019, 09:38 AM   #2631
IliketoPuck
Franchise Player
 
IliketoPuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen View Post
Teachers with a typical four year degree in Calgary don't make 90k until their 10th year teaching, and they never break 100k. You'll need a masters for that.

They start at 58k.
Ahh, yes. Facts. Stubborn things.
__________________
Pylon on the Edmonton Oilers:

"I am actually more excited for the Oilers game tomorrow than the Flames game. I am praying for multiple jersey tosses. The Oilers are my new favourite team for all the wrong reasons. I hate them so much I love them."
IliketoPuck is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to IliketoPuck For This Useful Post:
Old 11-05-2019, 09:48 AM   #2632
IliketoPuck
Franchise Player
 
IliketoPuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Did I miss anything interesting, or was it just the standard bi-annual teacher bash?
__________________
Pylon on the Edmonton Oilers:

"I am actually more excited for the Oilers game tomorrow than the Flames game. I am praying for multiple jersey tosses. The Oilers are my new favourite team for all the wrong reasons. I hate them so much I love them."
IliketoPuck is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to IliketoPuck For This Useful Post:
Old 11-05-2019, 09:53 AM   #2633
Canadianman
Backup Goalie
 
Join Date: Jan 2019
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
Education funding per student increased 17 per cent in the least 10 years alone (adjusted for inflation).

https://www.fraserinstitute.org/stud...in-canada-2019

Like health care, we spend more and more on education every decade.
Seriously, where are people getting their news from if they think we're actually spending less money on these services?
lol, reading comprehension FTW...

Here are some relevant quotes:

"To accurately understand education spending, both enrolment changes and the effects of price changes must be considered. Total enrolment in public schools in Canada declined by 1.8 percent between 2006/07 and 2015/16, from 5.2 million to a little over 5.0 million students. Alberta had the largest increase in public school enrolment over the period at 13.7 percent. Saskatchewan (6.5 percent) and Manitoba (0.5 percent) also experienced increasing enrolment levels. All other provinces saw a decline in public school enrolment over the period.

For Canada as a whole, over the last decade (2006/07 to 2015/16), per-student spending in public schools increased 17.3 percent (once adjustments have been made for inflation). Specifically, per-student education spending in public schools, accounting for changes in prices, increased from $10,901 to $12,791 between 2006/07 and 2015/16.

Saskatchewan saw the largest increase in per-student spending in public schools (after adjusting for inflation). That province experienced a 36.4 percent increase – from $11,224 in 2006/07 to $15,314 in 2015/16. The smallest increase was in Alberta (8.1 percent). Per-student spending in public schools in all 10 provinces increased over this period."
Canadianman is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Canadianman For This Useful Post:
Old 11-05-2019, 10:09 AM   #2634
IliketoPuck
Franchise Player
 
IliketoPuck's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Calgary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Canadianman View Post
lol, reading comprehension FTW...

Here are some relevant quotes:

"To accurately understand education spending, both enrolment changes and the effects of price changes must be considered. Total enrolment in public schools in Canada declined by 1.8 percent between 2006/07 and 2015/16, from 5.2 million to a little over 5.0 million students. Alberta had the largest increase in public school enrolment over the period at 13.7 percent. Saskatchewan (6.5 percent) and Manitoba (0.5 percent) also experienced increasing enrolment levels. All other provinces saw a decline in public school enrolment over the period.

For Canada as a whole, over the last decade (2006/07 to 2015/16), per-student spending in public schools increased 17.3 percent (once adjustments have been made for inflation). Specifically, per-student education spending in public schools, accounting for changes in prices, increased from $10,901 to $12,791 between 2006/07 and 2015/16.

Saskatchewan saw the largest increase in per-student spending in public schools (after adjusting for inflation). That province experienced a 36.4 percent increase – from $11,224 in 2006/07 to $15,314 in 2015/16. The smallest increase was in Alberta (8.1 percent). Per-student spending in public schools in all 10 provinces increased over this period."
It is worth noting, that as of April this year, teacher's wages had been frozen for 6 of the past seven years. Presumably inflation was also at 0% over that same time period?

And if those number don't line up, why? It's almost as though there has been a lot of good faith put forth by teachers for the better part of a decade.

Good faith that has been rewarded, predictably, again, by public vitriol.

This whole topic gets me really riled up, so I'm going to step away before I waste the rest of my day bashing out messages on CP.

The problem with governments in general is that they are insanely inefficient. But for some reason, teachers are the ones that get tossed under the bus in the public arena.

If the city of Calgary could find $60MM just by being forced to look for efficiencies this year, don't we think the Alberta government could find a tad bit more??

Also.....enough of the pretending. It is long past time for a PST.

Carry on, and best of luck to all combatants in this, the teacher bashing thread 6.0.
__________________
Pylon on the Edmonton Oilers:

"I am actually more excited for the Oilers game tomorrow than the Flames game. I am praying for multiple jersey tosses. The Oilers are my new favourite team for all the wrong reasons. I hate them so much I love them."

Last edited by IliketoPuck; 11-05-2019 at 02:35 PM. Reason: edited due to catch by Ryan Coke on article cited
IliketoPuck is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 8 Users Say Thank You to IliketoPuck For This Useful Post:
Old 11-05-2019, 10:14 AM   #2635
Torture
Loves Teh Chat!
 
Torture's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dion View Post
Not hearsay either as I witnessed the above in 1997.
Good for you.
Torture is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 10:51 AM   #2636
Titan
First Line Centre
 
Titan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Exp:
Default

Thanks to iggy_oi for always presenting the union side without getting emotional. S/He always presents facts in a calm manner and I hugely appreciate that as it is a great learning opportunity for me and adds to the debate.

The idea of using supply/demand to determine teacher wages is assinine. It assumes that all teachers are equal, a commodity. This is ludicrous. No one wants an entire teaching cohort composed of first year, ie cheap, teachers every year. It would be the economic thing to do and there is the supply for it but it would instill chaos.

Finally, the easy solution is almost never the right solution. I wish I had the time to do a line by line, position by position analysis of the government workforce. Let's leave the teachers and nurses alone until we have justified all of the war room directors, Government PR people, and on and on in the overall government system. Reducing aISH? Are you ####ing kidding me? A corporate tax break? Has this ever worked for an economy as a whole? Ever? Stock buybacks, bonuses and dividends is the experience in the States after Cheeto gave his giant tax break for corporations.

Finally, part 2, can we not pit one front line job against another? We are not in a position where we have to choose one or the other. Let's just assume all are valuable as they exist and work on how to pay for them.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammies View Post
You will be happier than a squirrel on a date with another, but sexier, squirrel, or a slumming mink with a squirrel fetish.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jammies View Post
It's like losing a game of tic-tac-toe to a lobotomized chicken.
Titan is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 9 Users Say Thank You to Titan For This Useful Post:
Old 11-05-2019, 01:16 PM   #2637
malcolmk14
Franchise Player
 
malcolmk14's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Exp:
Default

https://www.cbe.ab.ca/news-centre/Pa...statement.aspx

Quote:
As this $32 million cut comes in the midst of the school year, the impact will be much larger. We are estimating we will need to reduce spending by at least $48 million to balance our budget by the end of the school year.

Announcing this budget after the school year has already commenced means we must make changes. Quickly. These unexpected changes will be disruptive to our students, their families, and our staff. All options are being explored including larger class sizes, service cuts, staff layoffs, use of reserves and fee increases. The CBE will carefully review every option before finalizing our budget to minimize the impacts to student learning.
malcolmk14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 01:19 PM   #2638
peter12
Franchise Player
 
peter12's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Exp:
Default

Seriously, where does Cliff Fletcher get his information from?
peter12 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 01:59 PM   #2639
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Titan View Post

The idea of using supply/demand to determine teacher wages is assinine. It assumes that all teachers are equal, a commodity. This is ludicrous. No one wants an entire teaching cohort composed of first year, ie cheap, teachers every year. It would be the economic thing to do and there is the supply for it but it would instill chaos.

Finally, the easy solution is almost never the right solution. I wish I had the time to do a line by line, position by position analysis of the government workforce. Let's leave the teachers and nurses alone until we have justified all of the war room directors, Government PR people, and on and on in the overall government system.em.
The private sector wages are determined on a supply and demand basis and experienced people still have jobs. This would be no different to teaching. The entire concept is to pay the least amount possible for a qualified work force. The key is to ensure you have that qualified work force or education would suffer. I don’t think anyone in this thread wants that. In fact I bet you would find a lot of support for using savings on wages to higher more teachers to reduce class size which is shown to improve educational outcomes.

I think teachers and nurses are proxy’s for all government positions in these discussions. I think using teachers and nurses is a better point of discussion becuase the public sees the real value they deliver. Barry in HR for the government doesn’t appear to have the same necessity as a frontline worker. So you are absolutely right that every position in the government needs to be gone through line by line evaluate if the pay is appropriate for the market and reduce or increase as required.

Last edited by GGG; 11-05-2019 at 02:07 PM.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:14 PM   #2640
Ryan Coke
First Line Centre
 
Ryan Coke's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by IliketoPuck View Post
So, to simplify:

Alberta's student population increased by 13%, and over the same time period, funding increased 8%.

Why do those numbers not line up? It's almost as though there has been a systemic under funding of education occurring in the province for some time. But that would be counter to the narrative we like around here.
Not arguing the accuracy of the data in the article, but several people seems to be missing the fact that it says funding PER STUDENT has gone up (8.1% in Alberta). Regardless of the increase in student numbers, more funding per capita has occurred. Apparently.
Ryan Coke is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Ryan Coke For This Useful Post:
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:09 PM.

Calgary Flames
2017-18




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2016