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Old 01-22-2021, 10:35 PM   #4081
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It warms my heart that none of you are diplomats or at all involved in Canadian trade discussions. Sheesh
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Old 01-22-2021, 11:18 PM   #4082
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About the only leverage Canada has is to push through the Trans pacific and start selling a lot more product to China, it would also makes sense to seriously ramp up what ever enviromentel protections need be in place to minimize the enviromental argument, if you want to sell oil to the US it at least has to be the cleanest oil you can produce.

Refining it here as selling refined product into the North Western US market if we can compete on price would make sense as well, right now we have only one product with only one customer, that is insane
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Old 01-23-2021, 12:27 AM   #4083
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Who cares? Honestly. Who cares. It’s not worth arguing over anymore. This is like a 5-10 year old issue honestly.

So people don’t want oil and gas. Fine. Time to move on. Then when they need it and want it, prices will rise, and economics will dictate going back to do it. But in the meantime- who cares. Enough arguing into the wind. Some people, and so many on this website for example, will just never get there. Because of ignorance. Blissful ignorance.

Guess what? We use oil. We will use oil. And will continue to use oil for the next few decades. People can pretend we don’t. Not want to. Whatever, who cares. They’ll use it, we know they will because that’s literally how the ####ing world works. Who cares.

I hate this discussion so much now, and I’ve worked in this industry since graduating. It’s old, it’s tired, it’s really not worth debating with people who have zero clue how addicted to oil and gas they are. They won’t see our side, because they don’t want to- and you can’t change that. So who cares. Move on. Pipeline no pipeline- none of it matters anymore. The time for this debate was 5 years ago when people like me were opining like some of the people here now today. You’re way, way way too late. Nobody cares anymore. Like burn this city said, we don’t even know if we need that line anyway due to all the devastation in industry and flight of capital. And frankly it’s Americans that will largely suffer as they need the heavier grade. Hell the condensates and light oils that get separated there? Yeah we pipe them back to Fort Saskatchewan for blending so what could happen with reduced throughout headed south is increased price premiums for condensates which is good news for the Montney producers and especially NEBC.

None of it matters anymore. Just move on. Environmentalists don’t care to be rational. Young people with extremely comfortable lives won’t understand until they experience hardship or have to raise a family... who cares. Battle is lost. PR isn’t worth the internet fights. These internet millennial puffballs with no hardship no life experience have never worked a day can wander off into internet land getting brainwashed into a post-oil world that is framed as 2 years away when it’s 20-30, with no true regard of their climate or CO2 footprint and all in the name of running around telling others how to live while not making the sacrifices yourself. Classic.

Let the indigenous suffer. Let the environment suffer. Ramp up impact to climate. That’s what this decision is all about. All the wrong things. All the things it proposes to help it actually hilariously does precisely the opposite but look it- if the Americans want to be morons let them. Block “redneck” Albertans. Who cares. Time to live with it, that’s our best alternative right now. And then there’s Trudeau. What an absolute joke. Worst PM of all time by far. Just a spineless weasel with no sense of decency and no interest in restoring the country. Just the worst. Trump of Canada.

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Old 01-23-2021, 01:01 AM   #4084
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Next time, can you put the last sentence first, so I know not to bother reading the rest of your post?
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:24 AM   #4085
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Next time, can you put the last sentence first, so I know not to bother reading the rest of your post?
Haha
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:36 AM   #4086
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It’s always those dang millennials. You 30-40 year olds who have never worked a day in your life are the reason for this. I am sure of it!

Especially the ones without families. I mean, how can you argue with Mr.Coffee? A 40-year-old with no work experience who lives alone is... Norman Bates, basically. Then again at least he ran a motel.
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Old 01-23-2021, 01:43 AM   #4087
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Well that would be work experience and not qualify then. Plus I’ll give serial killers a pass because that job looks like a lot of work too actually.

There’s actually not really much of what I said that’s controversial. The crux of the statement is who gives a #### anymore the battle is lost and time to move on and that’s true.

I think the key difference is that people in oil and gas experienced this pain over the last few years like I said and gave ample warning but the righteous moral high ground keyboard defenders of the world, like yourself, who never pass up a chance at populism “thanks”, liked to play the “critical thinking” devils advocate role. The problem is that in doing so patriotically people like you drive realism and true practicality away from discussion because you’re more interested in being funny and gotchas and you’re just so darn RIGHT all the time, aren’t ya?

Well anyway. Now Albertans are facing the music and down the road sometime soon, so will Canadians. But man, good times playing the moral high ground and getting those laughs right? Awesome. Nice work man!
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Old 01-23-2021, 02:06 AM   #4088
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Well, we agree that the argument is lost. I mostly just feel bad for millennials. They make up the vast majority of the workforce and are almost exclusively the ones raising young families at this point, and now they get #### on by old farts and younger generations. That’s gotta suck.

It’s also incredibly self-cantered and pompous for someone who got a... what... 10? 20? 30 year career in a high paying industry straight out of university to stand atop a little soapbox and talk about how hard life is for people in O&G and how soon everyone else is going to feel it, as though somehow nearly everyone else has been so lucky. A little perspective goes a long way, but sure, tell us all about being a realist and how practical you are. Makes sense.

I don’t wish struggle on anyone. It would just be nice if people who seem to be experiencing it for the first time didn’t act like they were the first ones.
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Old 01-23-2021, 02:09 AM   #4089
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I’m a millennial actually, and I don’t think you have a slightest clue what it’s like to work in oil and gas. And I don’t think you have a clue as to how hard it actually has been, but you’re right about one thing, perspective is needed. It’s just needed with people like you, and your side of the table.

Like I said I understand you’ll never be convinced of anything because you’re convinced you’re the smartest guy in the room, I guess. Enjoy continuing to use oil very heavily in your life for the (remainder of it?) next 50 years and then lecturing people in oil and gas about what bad people they are. But make sure you’re smug and funny about it- that’s the most important thing.

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Old 01-23-2021, 02:27 AM   #4090
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Nvm, no sense wasting my time

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Old 01-23-2021, 08:39 AM   #4091
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Iím a millennial actually, and I donít think you have a slightest clue what itís like to work in oil and gas. And I donít think you have a clue as to how hard it actually has been, but youíre right about one thing, perspective is needed. Itís just needed with people like you, and your side of the table.
I've worked in O&G for about 24 years now and I can state the following with confidence:

-Working in the industry in Alberta was relatively easy and quite lucrative for a long time. A lot of people were/are underqualified and overpaid compared to many other industries. Most people in most other industries work just as hard with less compensation. You could have no education, drive a truck in Ft.Mac and clear six figures easily (one of many examples).

-The industry has always had it's booms and busts. Lately we've faced a more prolonged bust due to a lot of factors. In 80's bust in Alberta the layoffs were more sudden, the unemployment rate was much higher but these people also had to deal with things like very high interest rates on mortgages and a social safety net that wasn't as comprehensive as it is today. That said, there were also a lot of golden parachutes.

-The economic dream for many Albertans, going back at least 40 years, is the diversification of our economy so that we don't rely so heavily on the booms and busts (often dictated by the greed of OPEC) of our main industry. Regardless of what is happening today with O&G wouldn't it be prudent to develop an economy that relies less and less on such a volatile and finite resource?

-Alberta oil has made a lot of improvements over the last few decades when it comes to technology, safety, working conditions and the environment. Despite being one of the most socially ethical producers in the world, Alberta oil is still relatively dirty to most other jurisdictions.

-The world is facing an existential crisis when it comes to our climate and we need an 'all-hands-on-deck' approach to confront it. Yes, that has to start with the demand side rather than the supply side but far too often the message from people in the industry, politicians and many Albertans in general, seems to have been to ignore or deny it for personal financial interests. We have hurt our own credibility around the world and in our own nation.

-That said, Canada could be essentially energy independent if we could run a pipeline to the East and West coasts. Relying on a foreign power that is extremely partisan on almost every issue is foolish. The battle for XL was always a flip of the coin, at best.

Isn't it possible, that having spent your entire life in this industry that perhaps you are the one who is not seeing this issue clearly? Isn't it possible that you are the one with a skewed perspective because the issue hits so close to home? I think almost everyone in Alberta wants O&G to do well but we need to see it from a comprehensive perspective in order to find the right solutions both in the short and long term.
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Old 01-23-2021, 08:56 AM   #4092
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I've worked in O&G for about 24 years now and I can state the following with confidence:

-Working in the industry in Alberta was relatively easy and quite lucrative for a long time. A lot of people were/are underqualified and overpaid compared to many other industries. Most people in most other industries work just as hard with less compensation. You could have no education, drive a truck in Ft.Mac and clear six figures easily (one of many examples).

-The industry has always had it's booms and busts. Lately we've faced a more prolonged bust due to a lot of factors. In 80's bust in Alberta the layoffs were more sudden, the unemployment rate was much higher but these people also had to deal with things like very high interest rates on mortgages and a social safety net that wasn't as comprehensive as it is today. That said, there were also a lot of golden parachutes.

-The economic dream for many Albertans, going back at least 40 years, is the diversification of our economy so that we don't rely so heavily on the booms and busts (often dictated by the greed of OPEC) of our main industry. Regardless of what is happening today with O&G wouldn't it be prudent to develop an economy that relies less and less on such a volatile and finite resource?

-Alberta oil has made a lot of improvements over the last few decades when it comes to technology, safety, working conditions and the environment. Despite being one of the most socially ethical producers in the world, Alberta oil is still relatively dirty to most other jurisdictions.

-The world is facing an existential crisis when it comes to our climate and we need an 'all-hands-on-deck' approach to confront it. Yes, that has to start with the demand side rather than the supply side but far too often the message from people in the industry, politicians and many Albertans in general, seems to have been to ignore or deny it for personal financial interests. We have hurt our own credibility around the world and in our own nation.

-That said, Canada could be essentially energy independent if we could run a pipeline to the East and West coasts. Relying on a foreign power that is extremely partisan on almost every issue is foolish. The battle for XL was always a flip of the coin, at best.

Isn't it possible, that having spent your entire life in this industry that perhaps you are the one who is not seeing this issue clearly? Isn't it possible that you are the one with a skewed perspective because the issue hits so close to home? I think almost everyone in Alberta wants O&G to do well but we need to see it from a comprehensive perspective in order to find the right solutions both in the short and long term.
Seeing what unclearly? Are you reading my posts? I don’t care, it isn’t worth debating anymore is my point. Sure, you are right and I actually agree with a lot or most of what you’re writing. Seems like people aren’t really reading what I’m saying, the “debate” if there even is one, isn’t worth having.

No chance that whatever happened in the 80’s is comparable to the last decade, and I have spoken to a ton of people that worked through that era that agree.

Most / all of what you said is quite right. My main issue is the pious and ignorant moral grandstanding from folks that are quite ignorant about energy use and basically mocking, for like a decade, Albertans / oil and gas / etc. online. It’s a petty, repulsive and insensitive attitude. Their underlying premise may more or less be right but they can’t seem to see around their own ego in their pursuit of being “right”. I also like how even you and everyone agrees pipes should be built however we are all just happy and okay with it being incapable of being done haha. Shrug. I guess it’s okay if our quality of life starts to rapidly decrease? Meanwhile the same people bemoaning any government attempts to reign in spending in public sectors. I never claimed others don’t work hard? So, straw man. Thanks. Lastly name anybody- literally anyone- who said we should not diversify? Other than Kenney but he’s an idiot and that’s been widely confirmed? I literally have never talked to anyone that doesn’t think diversifying is a bad thing so where’s that Jim Carrey who are you talking to gif when you need it.

Pepsi and I agree on one thing though it’s not really worth my time anymore either so I’ll leave it at that as I’m sure there’s a long lineup of lefty warriors on here licking their chops at the chance to weigh in and get some internet “thanks” with their thank goodness moral righteousness while ignoring the blatant realities confronting them. Yeah my life can start to suck but thank goodness I told people on the internet and in oil to suck it up and take it! They deserved it and are bad people. Such jerks. Well then. Off to plug in my phone made of oil and gas plug it in with a cord made from oil and gas wearing clothes made from oil and gas walking on carpet / flooring made from oil and gas in a home heated by gas and go to sleep in my bed made from oil and gas and pull up the sheets made from oil and gas and turn off the lamp made from oil and gas providing light made from oil and gas but I’ll be damned if those oil and gas workers will be able to successfully argue they need a pipeline and I’ll be damned if I ever show an inch of support because I was able to sound like I’m saying all the right things look down my nose at them and feel good about my internet points.

And yeah call me crazy but I do suspect most of the type of character I portray above are people that are young idealistic millennial ignorant insensitive people who lack empathy. You know people like Pepsifree. Looking forward to losing my job and moving on, yay! Thanks everyone!

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Old 01-23-2021, 10:05 AM   #4093
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Seeing what unclearly? Are you reading my posts?
Yes, I've read your posts. What I've gleaned is the frustration from someone who has worked their way up through the industry, trying to do the right thing, provide for their people and withstand the barrage of anonymous online criticism from people who don't know what they're talking about.

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My main issue is the pious and ignorant moral grandstanding from folks that are quite ignorant about energy use and basically mocking, for like a decade, Albertans / oil and gas / etc. online. Itís a petty, repulsive and insensitive attitude. Their underlying premise may more or less be right but they canít seem to see around their own ego in their pursuit of being ďrightĒ.
Yeah, that irks me too. What also irks me is the hoards of climate denialists both online and in government that for years have refused to acknowledge that anything needs to be done. O&G obviously isn't the only culprit but it's the local one. For years the oilsands were about as dirty as it gets with many voices online, in the industry and in government either turning a blind eyed or denying the problem altogether. Extreme and/or myopic views tend to lead to the same tactic from the other side.

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I guess itís okay if our quality of life starts to rapidly decrease?
The quality of life in Alberta has been maybe the highest in the world for quite some time, thanks to our energy industry. Frankly, it was an unsustainable lifestyle and now we are coming back to the mean.

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I never claimed others donít work hard? So, straw man. Thanks.
I misread what you wrote. Sorry.

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Lastly name anybody- literally anyone- who said we should not diversify? Other than Kenney but heís an idiot and thatís been widely confirmed?
How about the industry itself lobbying for years to reduce the tax burden, reduce royalties, reduce the lease on public land, reduce regulations, etc.? Besides, having the entire government actively fight diversification is not insignificant. He's not the first either.

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I literally have never talked to anyone that doesnít think diversifying is a bad thing...
Sure, but actions speak louder than words.

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Pepsi and I agree on one thing though itís not really worth my time anymore either so Iíll leave it at that as Iím sure thereís a long lineup of lefty warriors on here licking their chops at the chance to weigh in and get some internet ďthanksĒ with their thank goodness moral righteousness while ignoring the blatant realities confronting them. Yeah my life can start to suck but thank goodness I told people on the internet and in oil to suck it up and take it! They deserved it and are bad people. Such jerks. Well then. Off to plug in my phone made of oil and gas plug it in with a cord made from oil and gas wearing clothes made from oil and gas walking on carpet / flooring made from oil and gas in a home heated by gas and go to sleep in my bed made from oil and gas and pull up the sheets made from oil and gas and turn off the lamp made from oil and gas providing light made from oil and gas but Iíll be damned if those oil and gas workers will be able to successfully argue they need a pipeline and Iíll be damned if I ever show an inch of support because I was able to sound like Iím saying all the right things look down my nose at them and feel good about my internet points.
This is the type of thing that I think is disingenuous and where your argument comes off the rails, so to speak. You are actively taking a position and dare I say 'moral high ground' which you accuse others of and strawman their points of view.

I was recently laid off for the 2nd time in my life. I'm worried about the future but there is value in keeping a balanced perspective and seeing through the bluster of each side to understand where we're at and where we're headed.

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And yeah call me crazy but I do suspect most of the type of character I portray above are people that are young idealistic millennial ignorant insensitive people who lack empathy. You know people like Pepsifree. Looking forward to losing my job and moving on, yay! Thanks everyone!
You're not crazy but you are engaging in an ad hominem attack on a person instead of discussing their points. This is often a symptom of a person who is not seeing the issue from a rational perspective.
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Old 01-23-2021, 10:45 AM   #4094
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Well, we agree that the argument is lost. I mostly just feel bad for millennials. They make up the vast majority of the workforce and are almost exclusively the ones raising young families at this point, and now they get #### on by old farts and younger generations. Thatís gotta suck.

Itís also incredibly self-cantered and pompous for someone who got a... what... 10? 20? 30 year career in a high paying industry straight out of university to stand atop a little soapbox and talk about how hard life is for people in O&G and how soon everyone else is going to feel it, as though somehow nearly everyone else has been so lucky. A little perspective goes a long way, but sure, tell us all about being a realist and how practical you are. Makes sense.

I donít wish struggle on anyone. It would just be nice if people who seem to be experiencing it for the first time didnít act like they were the first ones.
IMO this isn't something that happened to millennials in O&G, it's something they let happen to themselves. I'm on the old end of Millennial, I've always worked in the construction industry, when I got out of school ~17 years ago people were using anyone with a pulse hiring tactics in Alberta, and I remember an exact question and answer conversation I had in a job interview ~15 years ago.

[interviewer] Why do you want to work here.

[me] I could probably make more money in other industries right now, but I don't want to build myself up in an industry only to have it fall out from under me when I'm in my 40s at peak earning potential.

(I guess my forecast was a conservative by a few years)

Every millennial is young enough to have seen this coming before they started their career. I don't so much bemoan the people in their 50s/60s who thought they were going to ride this out to retirement.
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Old 01-23-2021, 10:58 AM   #4095
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How about the industry itself lobbying for years to reduce the tax burden, reduce royalties, reduce the lease on public land, reduce regulations, etc.?
Literally every industry ever has attempted to get favourable treatment wherever it could through lobbying or otherwise. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the notion that people don't want the economy diversified.

The issue seems more to be with the oft-heard simplistic demands of people who don't know anything about economics or even business in general that diversification just somehow... happen. As if the government had a big button labelled "diversify economy" and they're just stubbornly refusing to push it. Presumably it sits right next to the "transition to green energy sources" button.
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Old 01-23-2021, 11:34 AM   #4096
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What irks me so much is we had everything going so right for the future of our industry, and our country. We had the Northern Gateway pipeline approved, which would have entered the ocean at a much less populated area than the present one. We were well ahead of the US as far as regulated emissions were concerned. We had people willing to spend money on a pipeline to the east coast, and avoid importing oil from much less favorable countries. Plus our national debt and balance sheet was under control.

Then along comes a good looking drama teacher with a Quebec mentality, and an environmental extremist with an exceptional acumen for politics (who isn't even elected), and BOOM...everything goes to sh**.
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Old 01-23-2021, 11:37 AM   #4097
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Literally every industry ever has attempted to get favourable treatment wherever it could through lobbying or otherwise. That has nothing whatsoever to do with the notion that people don't want the economy diversified.

The issue seems more to be with the oft-heard simplistic demands of people who don't know anything about economics or even business in general that diversification just somehow... happen. As if the government had a big button labelled "diversify economy" and they're just stubbornly refusing to push it. Presumably it sits right next to the "transition to green energy sources" button.
No one ever explains how shoulder shrugging the loss of guaranteed revenue streams in the one industry we actually have a competitive advantage in brings us any closer to finding the mythical "diversify economy button". But they never fail to toss that feel good statement in when trying to explain why this isn't a big deal.

The only real world strategies both sides of the aisle have for diversifying the economy involve using government finances, either tax breaks or money grants. That's a whole hell of a lot easier when your main foundational industry isn't artificially landlocked, teetering on the edge of takeaway capacity with the looming spectre of any arbitrary decision in a foreign country, or sometimes our own, untethering us completely from world oil prices. Anyone talking out their ass about diversifying the economy should be just as upset about this decision as all the oil people are.
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Old 01-23-2021, 12:26 PM   #4098
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Pepsi and I agree on one thing though itís not really worth my time anymore either so Iíll leave it at that as Iím sure thereís a long lineup of lefty warriors on here licking their chops at the chance to weigh in and get some internet ďthanksĒ with their thank goodness moral righteousness while ignoring the blatant realities confronting them. Yeah my life can start to suck but thank goodness I told people on the internet and in oil to suck it up and take it! They deserved it and are bad people. Such jerks. Well then. Off to plug in my phone made of oil and gas plug it in with a cord made from oil and gas wearing clothes made from oil and gas walking on carpet / flooring made from oil and gas in a home heated by gas and go to sleep in my bed made from oil and gas and pull up the sheets made from oil and gas and turn off the lamp made from oil and gas providing light made from oil and gas but Iíll be damned if those oil and gas workers will be able to successfully argue they need a pipeline and Iíll be damned if I ever show an inch of support because I was able to sound like Iím saying all the right things look down my nose at them and feel good about my internet points.

And yeah call me crazy but I do suspect most of the type of character I portray above are people that are young idealistic millennial ignorant insensitive people who lack empathy. You know people like Pepsifree. Looking forward to losing my job and moving on, yay! Thanks everyone!
I think the problem with most of your position is that it relies heavily on strawman, misplaced ad hominem attacks, and, as Red Slinger said, is not coming from a rational perspective.

I've supported pipelines here plenty, I still do. You're free to go back through my posts. I, personally, work with O&G clients. Their success pays my income, or at least makes that income much easier to find. My family was raised on O&G income, that's why we came to Alberta. When I've spoken about the future of O&G, I've done so referencing projections from companies like Shell, not environmentalists. And still you take issue. I can look at Keystone and Biden's pulling of the permit and "shrug," because I'm exercising that realism you spoke about so highly.

To suggest I don't know anything about O&G, don't know what it's like to work in O&G, and don't care about the industry or the people in it, is a really stupid position to take. If you want to pretend that's the way it is to make you feel better about your own views, that's fine. It just doesn't hold any water. And I'm not sure why I would take you seriously.

Are there people who are exactly like what you describe? Absolutely. People who don't realise how instrumental it is in our lives, people who talk about diversification without a plan, people who don't realise that to get to the future they want, our best path forward is supporting the industry that will give us the resources to make those transitions possible. But I find it pretty tiring that anyone critical of O&G, or taking a realistic position on pipeline approvals, or anyone who even bothers to look towards the future at all, is lumped into the same naive child strawman. I don't see irrational O&G stakeholders who lump everyone who doesn't hold their narrow view into the same "bad" bucket as having any more moral highground or claims to realism or practicality than biased environmentalists who believe everyone in O&G is bad and every drop of oil should be stopped. It just doesn't make any sense. Neither position is interesting or intelligent, neither position is going to get us to where we're heading.

If you want to be taken seriously, direct your ire at the people who deserve it, don't take a shotgun approach to anyone who has a remotely different perspective than yourself. Another poster a while back said you were one of the more informed posters on O&G. When are you going to prove it? Because right now, you're no better than the strawmen you hate.
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Old 01-23-2021, 12:32 PM   #4099
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What irks me so much is we had everything going so right for the future of our industry, and our country. We had the Northern Gateway pipeline approved, which would have entered the ocean at a much less populated area than the present one. We were well ahead of the US as far as regulated emissions were concerned. We had people willing to spend money on a pipeline to the east coast, and avoid importing oil from much less favorable countries. Plus our national debt and balance sheet was under control.

Then along comes a good looking drama teacher with a Quebec mentality, and an environmental extremist with an exceptional acumen for politics (who isn't even elected), and BOOM...everything goes to sh**.
Not sure where you are getting this from. The EPA regulates emissions and testing at a much higher level than Alberta does. Although recently the newest Directive 60 regulations implemented federally are more in line with the current EPA regulations, Alberta is constantly fighting the Federal regulations and want to have their own, less strict, regulations supercede the federal regs.

I work very closely with the EPA in the states and AER in Alberta. Don't fall for Alberta propaghanda. We develop our (AER) regulations off of the EPA's codes and practices and lag way behind them in implementation.

If we had the EPA's rules and relegations, a huge majority of producers in AB would have left a long time ago.

It's still the wild west here in Alberta. Don't be tricked into thinking otherwise.
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It's the Law of E=NG. If there was an Edmonton on Mars, it would stink like Uranus.

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Old 01-23-2021, 12:41 PM   #4100
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Originally Posted by Wastedyouth View Post
Not sure where you are getting this from. The EPA regulates emissions and testing at a much higher level than Alberta does. Although recently the newest Directive 60 regulations implemented federally are more in line with the current EPA regulations, Alberta is constantly fighting the Federal regulations and want to have their own, less strict, regulations supercede the federal regs.

I work very closely with the EPA in the states and AER in Alberta. Don't fall for Alberta propaghanda. We develop our (AER) regulations off of the EPA's codes and practices and lag way behind them in implementation.

If we had the EPA's rules and relegations, a huge majority of producers in AB would have left a long time ago.

It's still the wild west here in Alberta. Don't be tricked into thinking otherwise.
Have you ever looked at NA from space at night? The oil and gas producing areas in the US are significantly brighter than those in Canada. This is due to the unregulated flaring of natural gas.
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