FF80F - Changes to the roster

[Enoch Root]

People need to get past the idea that being on this line means you are a top-line player, or a 3rd-line player, if that is the case.

It is a question of roles, and of ice-time.

Simon's role, in that scenario, would be very clear: do the dirty work, so Gaudreau can do his thing. That doesn't make Simon the 'top ranked' RW on the team. None of the guys would be concerned about that.

[MrMike]

The “top line” usually gets the most minutes. You don’t give Simon more ice time than Lindholm.

Whoever plays with Johnny and Monahan has to be able to score first and foremost.

[Stud_McCool]

I would like to see this be the starting lineup for one game:

Nordstrom - Backlund - Lindholm

Kylington - Andersson

Markstrom

[GS Skier]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

His time with Crosby was quite successful. He can't finish, but he can do the hard labour that allows the other two guys to produce.

It wasn't my idea, it is a proven strategy with the Pens.

And what it does is substantially improve the other two lines, giving them 3 really good lines.

Go waaay back: Cashman, Hodge, Esposito. Cashman was not a scoring threat but he played physical and owned the corners for that line. He was rewarded with points but Hodge and Esposito were the real goal scorers. In some respects not a lot has changed except today's players are far better athletes. But how often do we hear and talk about offensive pairings like Gaudreau and Monahan being a classic example.

But can a Simon play with those guys and do the Cashman thing? That'd be a heck of a bonus but who knows. Bennett can do it but for both players the same question applies. Can you play that way all year and then into the playoffs. Much taller task.

Perhaps platooning the the right wing on that line, depending on the opponent is a possible strategy. Lines are never carved in stone even if some offensive pairings work together over the long haul. Everyone who thinks we needed a more physical, shoot first type for a RWer is IMHO on the track.

Doesn't sound like Simon but its true the Pens put him with Crosby.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Unless my memory is failing me, Crosby/Simon was outscored 20F-21A. That's hardly proven. It's borderline asinine considering Sid's talent level.

Now maybe the Penguins had other issues, maybe on the blueline or in net, and I'm not one to discount the small sample size - but I am hopeful we are not playing Simon up the lineup. It has all the feel of putting Frolik with those two - and Frolik up until his steep dropoff last year was probably better than Simon may ever be.

Well, Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm had a negative goal differential last year, and if that were the final measure, half of all the lines in the league were a failure. Not exactly the best, or only, way to measure.

[Plaedo]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

People need to get past the idea that being on this line means you are a top-line player, or a 3rd-line player, if that is the case.

It is a question of roles, and of ice-time.

Simon's role, in that scenario, would be very clear: do the dirty work, so Gaudreau can do his thing. That doesn't make Simon the 'top ranked' RW on the team. None of the guys would be concerned about that.

The scouting report on Simon is that he's also a great passer and playmaker, which I think Monahan can take advantage of. People agree that Gaudreau needs more time and space, but the lack of such is even more glaring for Monahan in my view. He completely disappears when he doesn't have space because he doesn't have great speed, whereas Gaudreau will still have some flashes even when he is not hot.

I agree that Simon with 23+13 might be a worthwhile experiment. I also think Bennett at C with Tkachuk is worth giving a real shot and series of games.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GS Skier

Go waaay back: Cashman, Hodge, Esposito. Cashman was not a scoring threat but he played physical and owned the corners for that line. He was rewarded with points but Hodge and Esposito were the real goal scorers. In some respects not a lot has changed except today's players are far better athletes. But how often do we hear and talk about offensive pairings like Gaudreau and Monahan being a classic example.

But can a Simon play with those guys and do the Cashman thing? That'd be a heck of a bonus but who knows. Bennett can do it but for both players the same question applies. Can you play that way all year and then into the playoffs. Much taller task.

Perhaps platooning the the right wing on that line, depending on the opponent is a possible strategy. Lines are never carved in stone even if some offensive pairings work together over the long haul. Everyone who thinks we needed a more physical, shoot first type for a RWer is IMHO on the track.

Doesn't sound like Simon but its true the Pens put him with Crosby.

Semenko is another classic example. As was Gillies with Trottier and Bossy.

Obviously, the game has changed a lot, but the basic premise is the same: offensive lines still have dirty jobs to be done.

As for platooning, I agree. Obviously, a guy like Simon is not going to get the ice-time that Gaudreau and Monahan get. The PP takes care of a big chunk of that. But there is also going down to 3 lines when trailing in the 3rd period. You can put Lindholm back there when you're looking for a boost.

Again, people need to look at these things with flexibility.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Burning Beard

I think I'd like to see how these lines play out. Lines are looking pretty balanced.

I also like having Bennett with Tkachuk out there. Adds some grit and someone who can hop into scrums.

What an obviously flawed idea!!

Simon got to play with Crosby and Guentzel who are better than Gaudreau and Monahan and was putting up bottom 6 numbers.

When he got taken off the #1 line he got 2 pts in the last 14 games he played. He put up poor AHL emergency call up numbers.

Rinaldo put up 5 pts in 19 games.... Anyone thinking that he deserves to play first line minutes with Gaudreau and Monahan??

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, Gaudreau - Monahan - Lindholm had a negative goal differential last year, and if that were the final measure, half of all the lines in the league were a failure. Not exactly the best, or only, way to measure.

They didn't pass the eye test either, though. I've been clamouring for them to be split up since March 2019.

Penguins fans seem pretty consistently excited not to see Simon in their top six, even if it means losing his positive attributes.

[Enoch Root]

Again, it's about roles - if he can provide what Gaudreau and Monahan need, freeing up Lindholm to play with Tkachuk makes them a better team.

[BigErnSalute_16]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

I like it.

The coaches of this team have taken the easy path of loading up the top two lines, and it’s about time they shake things up. My only other suggestion would be to split Gaudreau and Monahan up.

Gaudreau - Backlund - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Bennett - Mangiapane
Nordstrom - Monahan - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Simon

I agree but the only thing for me is I think if Gaudreau and Monahan are split up Guadreau will have to be put with Bennett as his centre. He just seems to have a style more suited to Gaudreaus where as Backlund I think needs to be the primary puck carrier on his line too. The concern then is that it's uncertain if Bennett is ready for the minutes being paired with Gaudreau would require.

I'd consider something more like
Tkachuk - Monahan - Dube
Gaudreau - Bennett - Lindholm
Lucic/simon - Backlund - Mangiapane
Nordstrom - Ryan - Lucic/Simon

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Again, it's about roles - if he can provide what Gaudreau and Monahan need, freeing up Lindholm to play with Tkachuk makes them a better team.

Personally, I think what Gaudreau and Monahan need... is to be split up from each other. They're not the Sedins where you just need to find them a poor man's Burrows.

[ricardodw]

This was very weak poorly thought out and written article. I was thinking that I was missing not subscribing to the Athletic but not anymore if this was the quality of article.

Was Haynes doing this on purpose to mess with the Athletic as revenge?

[FlamesAddiction]

I would love to see Tkachuk-Lindholm (as center) together on the top-line for an extended period of time. Those two just have more fight in them. Give Gaudreau and Monahan the weaker match-ups.

Not sold on Bennett being up there, but I would be willing to give it a shot as well.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

This was very weak poorly thought out and written article. I was thinking that I was missing not subscribing to the Athletic but not anymore if this was the quality of article.

Was Haynes doing this on purpose to mess with the Athletic as revenge?

This just reinforces my like of Haynes ideas. If the biggest Flames hater on the board with the most ridiculous takes is against it then it is probably a good idea.

[FanIn80]

I honestly believe we need to trade Backlund for a top line RW. Not a top-six F who can play on the right side, I mean a top line guy who IS a RW.

Gaudreau Monahan Real-Actual-Legit-RW
Mangiapane Lindholm Tkachuk
Lucic Bennet Dube
Nordstrom Gawdin Simon

Backlund plus whatever for a top-line RW
-or-
Backlund for a second-line RW plus whatever

Ryan for cap space to pay for top-line RW
-or-
Ryan for less cap space plus a pick if we only get a second-line RW

We need a real piece up front on the right side. We didn’t sign one, so now we have to trade. In terms of players that have high enough value to get a big piece, AND we can survive losing them, it’s only Backlund and (maybe) Hanifin.


Edit: If all we get a second-line RW, then we go with this

Gaudreau Monahan Tkachuk
Mangiapane Lindholm Real-Actual-Legit-RW
Lucic Bennet Dube
Nordstrom Gawdin Simon

[Harry Lime]

Originally Posted by BigErnSalute_16

I agree but the only thing for me is I think if Gaudreau and Monahan are split up Guadreau will have to be put with Bennett as his centre. He just seems to have a style more suited to Gaudreaus where as Backlund I think needs to be the primary puck carrier on his line too. The concern then is that it's uncertain if Bennett is ready for the minutes being paired with Gaudreau would require.

I'd consider something more like
Tkachuk - Monahan - Dube
Gaudreau - Bennett - Lindholm
Lucic/simon - Backlund - Mangiapane
Nordstrom - Ryan - Lucic/Simon

This actually has some merit to me. One of the biggest problems is that everyone on the team lets Johnny carry the puck as much as he wants. Monahan is especially guilty of this, as I can't remember the last time that he crossed the offensive blueline with the puck.

Bennett don't give a ####. He likes carrying the puck.

[Lanny_McDonald]

What a brutal article. Any lineup that has Sam Bennett in the top six is destined to miss the playoffs and get both the coach and GM fired, and for good reason. I don't care what Bennett did in the post season, that has to be offset by the fact he scored 12 points in the regular season. You cannot take the incredible small sample size of the post season and think for a second that means the "core" problems are solved. A third liner is not a core player and you cannot slot him up the lineup, thinking that solves the problem. The core doesn't change until the players in question step up and prove they can shoulder a load. So far, we have no proof of that. The core is still exactly what it was, and suggesting otherwise is being nothing more than Calgary's version of David Staples.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Semenko is another classic example. As was Gillies with Trottier and Bossy.

Obviously, the game has changed a lot, but the basic premise is the same: offensive lines still have dirty jobs to be done.

As for platooning, I agree. Obviously, a guy like Simon is not going to get the ice-time that Gaudreau and Monahan get. The PP takes care of a big chunk of that. But there is also going down to 3 lines when trailing in the 3rd period. You can put Lindholm back there when you're looking for a boost.

Again, people need to look at these things with flexibility.

Hey, Gillies is an HOFer.

[robertsfanatic]

Monahan should play with Tkachuk.

Also, the premise of the article that the lines should be changed and other players given more minutes is a good one. I think they have really good ingredients, they just need the chef to make the meal delicious!