FF80F - Changes to the roster

[Plaedo]

http://www.flamesfrom80feet.ca/2020/...d-and.html?m=1

(New post from Darren Haynes, free of a paywall since he was laid off by The Athletic)

Discuss.

[Ped]

It's a pretty terrible article. One of his arguments for Bennett being on the first line is that he was drafted 4th overall. Draft pedigree means nothing at this point.


Is anyone who thinks Mangiapane can't be on the first line, thinks it's because he's a 6th round pick? Is there anyone at all in the NHL who doubts that Matthew Tkachuk could play on the first line?

[kyuss275]

He had me shaking my head once I saw Bennett as first line center. He still has a lot to prove. Gio is declining but on the bottom pairing?

[ComixZone]

I like it.

The coaches of this team have taken the easy path of loading up the top two lines, and it’s about time they shake things up. My only other suggestion would be to split Gaudreau and Monahan up.

Gaudreau - Backlund - Lindholm
Tkachuk - Bennett - Mangiapane
Nordstrom - Monahan - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Simon

[Toonage]

"Eh, why not?" - the article

To be fair I'm sure we'll see lines like this at some point during the season when things get stale etc.

[genetic_phreek]

I like it too. People disagree with the whole Bennett not on the first line but at the end of the day, the things other coaches have tried isn't working, why not try something with what you currently have? I've always hated when you default to what you know is safe, I'd rather sink with trying something way different than staying afloat with being safe. Slow death.

[bigpete]

I like it too. Time to mix it up and see what happens.

[Enoch Root]

I don't agree with many of his conclusions or suggestions. However, I think the more important issue here is the basic premise that this team, with a shake-up, can look much better. Which I totally agree with. Here are some thoughts I have on that:

1) add Simon to the Monahan line
2) freeing up Lindholm to play with Tkachuk, making them the top line
3) leaving a fun 3rd line, and pretty solid 4th line

Tkachuk - Backlund - Lindholm (against top lines)
Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon
Mangiapane - Bennett - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom

There is no real 'top line' here, but that is a really solid set on lines. And you could switch Backlund and Bennett.

You could also mix it up this way:

Tkachuk - Backlund - Mangiapane
Dube - Bennett - Lindholm

I know people will argue 'you can't have Lindholm on the 3rd line', but I would expect these lines would get pretty even time 5on5, and Lindholm is still going to get his PP and PK times, so he is going to run 19-20 minutes per game regardless.

I have been thinking for a while that it is time to mix things up, and with the growth of Mangiapane, Dube and Bennett, we now have more depth to do so.

[DeluxeMoustache]

I like the intent of what he is saying, but it really falls short in a lot of ways.

He says Tkachuk is the best player, and follows that up with “Enough said”. Well, I think there is more to say. You can’t on one hand argue that Bennett deserves an opportunity due to how he steps up in the playoffs, then give Tkachuk a free pass and neglect that paltry 5 points in 15 games. Great interview, great hat flipper, but just hasn’t gotten it done in the playoffs.

In his line shuffling, he neglects a few things. The lineup has to support the style the coach wants to play.

Johnny and Monahan worked together with Lindholm when they were playing fire wagon hockey. It was one of the best lines in the league. But they changed the style down the stretch in 18-19 presumably in the mind of the coaches to play a playoff type of game. If you want Johnny to succeed in that style, might you not need somebody to create space? Monahan increased his physicality but it’s not like he is a physical player.

(And that big body is not Buddy Robinson. I still cringe when I recall Buddy Robinson dumping the puck in the corner for Gaudreau to retrieve.)

Mangiapane is a middle 6 guy for sure, who worked well when playing with Backlund. He also had a stretch of 5 points in 25 games last year before they clicked. Backlund is under appreciated by a lot of people but should not be.

And Gio on the third pairing? Jeez. Does he not realize that Andersson looked good on the top pairing in part because Gio is one of the best players in the game?

I too agree with the premise that the GM has a lot of good pieces. And the coach should make it work well with system and lineup decisions

If I was the coach I might sit Haynes in the press box for a game to think about how he has done it

[Enoch Root]

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of Tkachuk and Lindholm together. They are probably the two most cerebral forwards, and their skills are pretty complementary. And since they are so cerebral, you can get away with putting Bennett with them, which maximizes Bennett's value, IMO

Tkachuk - Bennett - Lindholm

(with Bennett and Lindholm being interchangeable, depending on matchups)

That leaves:

Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube as a really solid 3rd line.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

The more I think about it, the more I love the idea of Tkachuk and Lindholm together. They are probably the two most cerebral forwards, and their skills are pretty complementary. And since they are so cerebral, you can get away with putting Bennett with them, which maximizes Bennett's value, IMO

Tkachuk - Bennett - Lindholm

(with Bennett and Lindholm being interchangeable, depending on matchups)

That leaves:

Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube as a really solid 3rd line.

Who plays with Monahan and Gaudreau?

[Enoch Root]

Simon

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Simon

Gross I put Dube there and Simon in the bottom 6

[Enoch Root]

Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon
Tkachuk - Bennett - Lindholm
Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom

[Vinny01]

Simon has been described as a guy with no finish at all I have no idea why we would play him with our best offensive player and top goal scorer?

I am intrigued by that second line though

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Simon has been described as a guy with no finish at all I have no idea why we would play him with our best offensive player and top goal scorer?

I am intrigued by that second line though

His time with Crosby was quite successful. He can't finish, but he can do the hard labour that allows the other two guys to produce.

It wasn't my idea, it is a proven strategy with the Pens.

And what it does is substantially improve the other two lines, giving them 3 really good lines.

[Burning Beard]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon
Tkachuk - Bennett - Lindholm
Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom

I think I'd like to see how these lines play out. Lines are looking pretty balanced.

I also like having Bennett with Tkachuk out there. Adds some grit and someone who can hop into scrums.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

His time with Crosby was quite successful. He can't finish, but he can do the hard labour that allows the other two guys to produce.

It wasn't my idea, it is a proven strategy with the Pens.

And what it does is substantially improve the other two lines, giving them 3 really good lines.

Unless my memory is failing me, Crosby/Simon was outscored 20F-21A. That's hardly proven. It's borderline asinine considering Sid's talent level.

Now maybe the Penguins had other issues, maybe on the blueline or in net, and I'm not one to discount the small sample size - but I am hopeful we are not playing Simon up the lineup. It has all the feel of putting Frolik with those two - and Frolik up until his steep dropoff last year was probably better than Simon may ever be.

[genetic_phreek]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Gaudreau - Monahan - Simon
Tkachuk - Bennett - Lindholm
Mangiapane - Backlund - Dube
Lucic - Ryan - Nordstrom

Yeah not sure why Simon is elevated over Mangiapane or Dube. Not so great for morale.

[mile]

I think people put too much stock into how the lines are numbered.

If we called the Gaudreau - Monahan - Dube the top line and Mangiapane - Bennett - Tkachuk the second line line I don't think people would have as much of an issue.

Bennett will never be thought of as a first line center but if he happens to center the best line on the team and the team is winning, then does it really matter? William Karlsson wasn't thought of anything close to a first line center before Vegas' first season but he was put in that role 8 games into that season. And it helped that they didn't any other proven centers which made it easier to give him the big minutes, but the point is that they didn't let labels or the stat sheet stop them from trying out new things.

He still has a lot to prove and I won't believe it until it see it in the regular season, but I also don't think it's a massive reach to suggest that Bennett could play in Monahan's spot - he produced the same as Monahan in the playoffs with 3 less minutes of average TOI while being harder on the forecheck and backcheck. Even if he produced slightly less while providing that same tenacity that Monahan doesn't for the same amount of minutes, I'd take that.

As for Haynes' ideas, I don't hate it. But I would at least start the season with the line that was working in the playoffs, then make changes as you go. Biggest things for me are keeping the Bennett - Dube combination intact and separating Gaudreau and Monahan if they are not moved. If Bennett does start producing in the regular season, then eventually move him into Backlund or Monahan's spot.

The idea that the core has changed is an interesting one. It'd be amazing if Mangiapane, Dube, Bennett, and our young defensemen take that next step and Gaudreau, Monahan, Giordano become excellent support players.