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Old 04-30-2019, 09:04 AM   #41
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How is there limited data there? It's twelve whole years where they have had as little playoff success as anyone in the league. It's not like I'm pulling from some random three-year span from when the league had 21 teams to argue for why Calgary is worse than Vegas.

Also, low blow, Loblaw.
3 playoff appearances for most of these players. The first for a lot of key players like Tkachuk, Andersson, Lindholm, Hanifin, Ryan, and others like Mangiapane, Hathaway, Czarnik, Valimaki. I don't know how it escaped everyone that a big chunk of our team saw the playoffs for the first time this year.

The others were a little more experienced, but those previous playoff expectations were to show up and play in the first round, but never to even win a round. And yet, the Flames managed to win a first round matchup where they were the underdog in 2015. In 2017 they were sewered by one of the worst goaltending performances in the playoffs I've ever seen by Elliott, otherwise they likely win a couple games and then who knows?

This is the first time they fell way below expectations, and it was mostly because Gaudreau and Monahan didn't show up. To flatly declare what you did is a HUGE stretch on what these players have shown so far in their career at all levels, and it completely ignores the fact that having so many players new to the playoffs was always going to be a challenge this year.

Losing in the first round, especially the way they did, was disappointing, no doubt. I also realize that people are going to be upset for a while about it. Okay, have at 'er. But let's calm down with the certain declarations about the future for this team and these players. It's getting to be a bit much.


Edit: Sorry, 2nd appearance for Tkachuk. My bad.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:08 AM   #42
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But Cali, I'm not saying anything about the team and its players. I don't profess to know anything about how they will progress. For all I know, Andrew Mangiapane will score 90 points next year. Maybe Gaudreau gets 110. I'm not predicting any of that.

Everything that I have said is personal. As a fan, I won't begin to expect any playoff success until I actually see some. That is all.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:15 AM   #43
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How is there limited data there? It's twelve whole years where they have had as little playoff success as anyone in the league. It's not like I'm pulling from some random three-year span from when the league had 21 teams to argue for why Calgary is worse than Vegas.

Also, low blow, Loblaw.
Is 12 years relevant though?

Brad Treliving was hired 5 years and two days ago. To me that was the shift in vision from Burke holding court and transitioning out of Feaster and into a new guy with a plan.

If that date doesn't work you can certainly go back to the Iginla trade as the beginning of the rebuild and judge accordingly.

But 12 years doesn't hold much water for me in assessing what's to come.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:15 AM   #44
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Everything you've said here is correct. I'm not saying that history has any bearing on their success, though. That's not at all what I'm saying.

I'm just saying that their lack of success in the past has lowered my own personal expectations of what they will achieve. I have been conditioned to expect failure. I'm not saying that their failure is some sort of dooming curse. I just don't get optimistic about the team anymore because they haven't given me any reason to be. Add the saying goes, "I'll believe it when I see it"--and I haven't seen any of it. The failure is all I've ever known, so until it gets better in the playoffs, all of the regular-season success and the "best defenses in the league" don't mean a whole lot.

Perhaps that's irrational.
Wow, the Flames broke even the Eternal Optimist. Dark times.

You just haven't known ENOUGH failure. I've been experiencing failure every step of the way since 1995. Once you've seen enough bad times, you begin to miss them.

Reminds me of a very wise man's quote:

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“Ah you think darkness failure is your ally? You merely adopted the dark failure. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the light playoffs until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!”
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:15 AM   #45
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Isn't this Tkachuk's second playoffs? I thought he was part of the team when we were swept by Anaheim.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:16 AM   #46
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A fifth of the respondents want Gaudreau traded? Yikes.

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Isn't this Tkachuk's second playoffs? I thought he was part of the team when we were swept by Anaheim.
We pretend that series never happened.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:18 AM   #47
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But 12 years doesn't hold much water for me in assessing what's to come.
It's an unusual sample but it's entirely personal -- it's all that I've seen. Perhaps that makes me less qualified to comment. The five-year sample with Treliving is marginally more impressive.

Here's hoping that the 2020s are prosperous for us all, including the Flames. It's overdue. But hope is not the same as expectation.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:18 AM   #48
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Are you serious? This format has been used for decades and it's very simple as the intention is to state as a fan if you want the player back, or not, and if he's underpaid. It's not for readers to reply with paragraphs explaining how they would go about getting rid of Neal. That's what these forums are for.
And it's been dumb for decades.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:32 AM   #49
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Bollig and Raymond, yes. They were garbage signings at the time of signing and confirmed as the deals played out.

Brouwer and Neal, no. No one thought Brouwer's production and physical play would fall of a cliff at the time of signing. At the very least, he would have been a physical presence with veteran experience and leadership. Likewise for Neal, but he was an even bigger disappointment. Again, at the time of signing these didn't look like bad deals.
That’s what scouting is though. It’s about forecasting what pro players can do for your team and mitigating the risks involved. Age is absolutely a risk yes, but I also think it’s a fallacy to believe that Brouwer and Neal’s games just fell off a cliff overnight. I mean, can you really just forget how to play from June to September?

I think it’s more so that these guys were just support players who relied on others to drive play and they just happened to lose out on a good situation when they switched teams. Who knows, if the team chose better free agents, maybe the team would still be vying for the Cup right now.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:34 AM   #50
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Watching a lot of hockey this season and playoffs and it strikes me.

Is there another player in the league who turns away from 50/50s or shys away from contact like Gaudreau? I get that he adds an offensive element few in the league can match so is that justified in avoiding most contact/battles?

And again Monahan. Not a lot of perennial 30 goal scorers out there with elite sniping skills in tight. Does that justify unwillingness to use your size and add grit come playoff time? I don’t see a lot of centreman left in these playoffs swooping away instead of finishing their check.

I said coming in to playoffs I was earnestly curious how the Flames would perform with a top line whose style is so contrasted to playoff hockey. Well the results were quite glaring. But I can’t foresee either willing to adapt. They seem to be who they are.

Hence the results of the poll I suppose. I’m not sure you can win when your top players won’t engage.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:47 AM   #51
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Watching a lot of hockey this season and playoffs and it strikes me.

Is there another player in the league who turns away from 50/50s or shys away from contact like Gaudreau? I get that he adds an offensive element few in the league can match so is that justified in avoiding most contact/battles?
What do you want him to do at 5'6 and 140lbs with his equipment on? He is a skill player, they shy away from contact. If you watched the Jets you saw Ehlers shy away from contact. William Nylander, same thing. Gaudreau is not Theo Fleury.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:48 AM   #52
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If I'm going to make any complaint about Gaudreau coming from these past playoffs it isn't him shying away so much as it was turning and yelling at the officials after pretty much every play where he lost the puck. Whether its justifiable or not, that has to stop.
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Old 04-30-2019, 09:50 AM   #53
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“Ah you think failure is your ally? You merely adopted failure. I was born in it, molded by it. I didn't see the playoffs until I was already a man, by then it was nothing to me but blinding!”
This is bloody brilliant.
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:03 AM   #54
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How is there limited data there? It's twelve whole years where they have had as little playoff success as anyone in the league. It's not like I'm pulling from some random three-year span from when the league had 21 teams to argue for why Calgary is worse than Vegas.

Also, low blow, Loblaw.
You are absolutely allowed to speak as a fan and it has been a long history of disappointment. And let's face it, we will all still be fans of the team after guys like Treliving are long gone and working somewhere else.

And yeah talking about your chosen profession is a dumb low blow.

What's the Loblaw reference?
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:07 AM   #55
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What do you want him to do at 5'6 and 140lbs with his equipment on? He is a skill player, they shy away from contact. If you watched the Jets you saw Ehlers shy away from contact. William Nylander, same thing. Gaudreau is not Theo Fleury.
Well, I think a lot of people would like to see Johnny develop a little bit of a mean streak. Take a high sticking or slashing penalty every now and then just to make guys think twice.

He's never going to be Theo, but he needs to push back. Ditto Monahan.

The best thing Tkachuk ever did for his career was elbow Drew Doughty in the face. That told the whole league that he didn't care who you were, he would #### you up like you were nobody. And since then, everyone outside the Kings has avoided taking big runs at him.

Johnny, two-hand someone in the back of the knee. Just to do it. It's like in Bull Durham when Crash tells Nuke to hit the mascot. Sometimes you gotta put a little fear in their hearts, and not just that you'll embarrass them on SportsCentre later.
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:10 AM   #56
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One thing I have learned this year is I don't care if the Flames are first or second again next year. Show me what you can do in the playoffs.
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:12 AM   #57
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You are absolutely allowed to speak as a fan and it has been a long history of disappointment. And let's face it, we will all still be fans of the team after guys like Treliving are long gone and working somewhere else.

And yeah talking about your chosen profession is a dumb low blow.

What's the Loblaw reference?
It's a reference to Scott Baio's character from Arrested Development:

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Old 04-30-2019, 10:19 AM   #58
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3 playoff appearances for most of these players. The first for a lot of key players like Tkachuk, Andersson, Lindholm, Hanifin, Ryan, and others like Mangiapane, Hathaway, Czarnik, Valimaki. I don't know how it escaped everyone that a big chunk of our team saw the playoffs for the first time this year.

The others were a little more experienced, but those previous playoff expectations were to show up and play in the first round, but never to even win a round. And yet, the Flames managed to win a first round matchup where they were the underdog in 2015. In 2017 they were sewered by one of the worst goaltending performances in the playoffs I've ever seen by Elliott, otherwise they likely win a couple games and then who knows?

This is the first time they fell way below expectations, and it was mostly because Gaudreau and Monahan didn't show up. To flatly declare what you did is a HUGE stretch on what these players have shown so far in their career at all levels, and it completely ignores the fact that having so many players new to the playoffs was always going to be a challenge this year.

As I noted in a previous thread, the experience argument is BS.

Before Game 5 - COL has an average of 18 games of playoff experience (including this series). The Flames average is 17. Take away these last four games and 9 COL players have less than 10 PO games. (CGY has 10) COL hasn't even dressed their most experienced PO player - Brassard with 92 PO games - in the last two games. They have 2 guys with over 50 PO games. Flames have 1. COL has 1 player who has won a cup. So do the Flames.

Grubauer has 41 PO games - but how many of those as a spectator in the best seat in the house?

Experience in the playoffs is not the difference here.A big chunk of COL's players also saw their first playoff games. Seems to me COL - especially Mackinnon (20 playoff games - including this year) did more with their "limited" experience than the Flames.



Perhaps the "Favorite" vs the "Underdog" mentality is a heavy factor.
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Old 04-30-2019, 10:21 AM   #59
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What do you want him to do at 5'6 and 140lbs with his equipment on? He is a skill player, they shy away from contact. If you watched the Jets you saw Ehlers shy away from contact. William Nylander, same thing. Gaudreau is not Theo Fleury.
I find this fanbase has an obsession for size and toughness for whatever reason. This team for the longest time tried to build a big, gritty, heavy team that was probably the toughest in the league and they managed to find new ways to lose in the 1st round every year or just miss as to ensure that we ended up in the worst position for many years.

Obviously, watching your highest scoring winger shy away from contact in the playoffs isn't ideal. But I think the big picture question is why? Why is he being put in a position where he has to constantly try to avoid 2-3 hits every time he has the puck and to me the answer is pretty simple. We don't have a puck dominant center.

Sean Monahan looks to get rid of the puck as quickly as he can and let Gaudreau do all the work of exiting and entering the zone. So it becomes really easy and predictable to defend because you just have to overload the left side and pretty much shut down that line. If the Flames had a more puck dominant center like most elite teams have; then at the very least you could have him carry the majority of the load and dish off to Gaudreau at more opportune times so he could then spin and deke and shoot or dish off.

But alas, the Flames do not have that guy. So we're stuck with what we have and it'll be the exact same song and dance for the top line over and over again in the playoffs. Gaudreau will carry the puck up the ice, multiple defenders will hone in, he'll have no space to move or to find Monahan or Lindholm, a turnover will occur and everyone will be too slow to get back and they'll all end up with the minus next to their names. Rinse, wash and repeat.

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Old 04-30-2019, 10:33 AM   #60
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Attention Everyone: The Calgary Flames did not win the 2018-2019 Western Conference title; it will be won by either the Colorado Avalanche, San Jose Sharks, St. Louis Blues, or Dallas Stars. It is not a regular season title.
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