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Old 03-19-2019, 10:10 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by temple5 View Post
Really good and informative video, best I have seen thus far. I dont want to blame pilots for this but this video shows 2 relatively simple buttons that would disable MCAS completely. I really hope these arent cases of malfunctioning pitot tubes that we have seen from other crashes before.

The facebook post above seems to describe basically what this video shows.

Hostage video.
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Old 03-19-2019, 10:13 AM   #222
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In the case of Lion Air, it was a malfunctioning AOA and not pitot, that's been established already. Those guys didn't even know what they were fighting against.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:12 AM   #223
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Air Canada intends to remove 737 MAX flying from its schedule until at least July 1, 2019.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:58 AM   #224
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Air Canada intends to remove 737 MAX flying from its schedule until at least July 1, 2019.

Yup, they've made some changes to YYC flights. I posted those in the YYC Airport thread. Guess they are also using Air Transat and their A330's for some transcontinental flights to cover capacity.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:24 PM   #225
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What information did you hear that made you change your mind from this:

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Not to mention the comments already made about pilot training and safety standards in third world countries, and how easy it is to disable the automatic trim. Until both investigations are completed, it's irresponsible to suggest grounding every 737 MAX in the world, or to suggest that the plane is a death trap.
To this:

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But I don't disagree with grounding it until all of the facts come out for sure. I am personally going to reserve judgement regarding the cause of the crashes until the official investigations are completed. Until that happens, anything that anyone says is pure speculation.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:26 PM   #226
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Quote:
Originally Posted by temple5 View Post
Really good and informative video, best I have seen thus far. I dont want to blame pilots for this but this video shows 2 relatively simple buttons that would disable MCAS completely.
I think Ryan Coke’s post just two above yours really addresses this.

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While the correct response to a malfunctioning MCAS system is relatively straight forward, the reality of 2 hull losses in a short period of time can’t be dismissed. Chalking it up to ‘the pilots could’ve/should’ve done better’ isn’t enough.
300+ people dead, from what’s looking like the same or very similar error (some combo of AOA sensor malfunction combined with MCAS combined with pilot error). Saying “pilots need to be better” is not enough. It’s a system problem that needs to be addressed. Maybe it’s relatively easy to disengage MCAS but obviously it’s not THAT easy in an escalating crisis/panic situation when the pilot(s) are having trouble controlling the plane and diagnosing the actual problem, and the solving it within enough time to prevent a crash.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:43 PM   #227
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I am floored at the response to that video. I don't see how it proves anything other than the airplane being garbage.
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Old 03-19-2019, 12:58 PM   #228
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Headed to Maui in April and was scheduled outbound YYC-YVR-OGG with a MAX8 leaving Van. Air Canada's site now lists the YVR-OGG flights as, "Second daily flight cancelled, now operates once daily with larger Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767-300ER".

I have the option to fly out of SFO or LAX instead of YVR right now and didn't know if I should make the change or not at this point. I'd hate to have that 1 flight from Vancouver turn out to be much later in the day and have to wait around forever and also get into Maui late at night.

Any insight/suggestions?
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Old 03-19-2019, 01:06 PM   #229
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Avoid connecting at LAX, if possible.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:17 PM   #230
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Originally Posted by Sliver View Post
What information did you hear that made you change your mind from this:







To this:
The same thing as Transport Canada and the FAA - the new radar and satellite data.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:33 PM   #231
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Originally Posted by Peanut View Post
Maybe it’s relatively easy to disengage MCAS but obviously it’s not THAT easy in an escalating crisis/panic situation when the pilot(s) are having trouble controlling the plane and diagnosing the actual problem, and the solving it within enough time to prevent a crash.
I need to go back and read again to be sure, but I thought I remember reading that the day before the Lion Air crash, the exact same aircraft experienced trim issues, and the pilots successfully disabled the system and landed safely.

If this is a software issue, it definitely needs to be fixed, but some of the onus still falls on the pilots. And the only reason I say that is, you can have "runaway trim" on an older 737-800 too, and the procedure to disable the electric trim wheel is the same.

However, if the pilot doesn't even know that MCAS exists, it takes a sharp pilot to diagnose what's wrong, and of course, the glitch shouldn't even happen to begin with. Not to mention that the trim wheel, while it's loud, it spins a LOT during normal flight, so it's easy for a pilot (so I hear, no personal experience, lol) to not realize that the trim wheel is the problem.

We could talk about this for months, and there's SO many variables that go into this, heh.
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Old 03-19-2019, 09:45 PM   #232
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Originally Posted by Madman View Post
Headed to Maui in April and was scheduled outbound YYC-YVR-OGG with a MAX8 leaving Van. Air Canada's site now lists the YVR-OGG flights as, "Second daily flight cancelled, now operates once daily with larger Air Canada Rouge Boeing 767-300ER".

I have the option to fly out of SFO or LAX instead of YVR right now and didn't know if I should make the change or not at this point. I'd hate to have that 1 flight from Vancouver turn out to be much later in the day and have to wait around forever and also get into Maui late at night.

Any insight/suggestions?
AC535 is the morning flight, and that one appears to be the one they've been canceling lately. AC537 in the evening has been operated by a 787-9.

ASSUMING that the schedules stay the same (which is a big assumption) and the only change is swapping the 787 for a Rouge 767, then it would be an evening flight.

Given the choice, personally, I'd avoid LAX like the plague (even without a terminal change, in which case you have to exit, take a bus at street level, and re-clear security), and YVR involves a super long walk from one side of the airport to the other.

If there's no/minimal price difference, take the flight via SFO. What airlines/aircraft operate those flights?

YVR isn't bad if you don't have little kids that can't walk long distances. But the seats and legroom on Rouge aircraft SUCK. Avoid those if you can.

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Old 03-19-2019, 10:39 PM   #233
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The same thing as Transport Canada and the FAA - the new radar and satellite data.
I don't know. This sounded like a ridiculous statement at the time
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Until both investigations are completed, it's irresponsible to suggest grounding every 737 MAX in the world, or to suggest that the plane is a death trap.
And it does now. How in the world is it irresponsible to ground 370 planes that have only been flying for 2 years until a full investigation is done? It seems like that is/was the most prudent thing to do and letting them still fly until an investigation is complete was completely irresponsible.

Never mind the comments about the grown ups making the decisions. When in fact it turns out it was Trump, the president of Boeing and an FAA acting director tweeting and having irrational arguments about whether planes are too high tech/whether they are safe to fly/how much it will cost Boeing to ground until they got to the point of letting Trump put his face out as the savior to ground the planes.

The planes should have been grounded immediately after two new planes crashed until preliminary investigations could at least suggest it was unlikely to be caused by a design or technological flaw in the plane. The rest of the world was right on this one, and North America caved to self interests.
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:13 PM   #234
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https://twitter.com/user/status/1108153904867487745
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Old 03-19-2019, 11:29 PM   #235
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I just saw this myself. It does help to have another set of eyes, because the third pilot can't do anything in regards to flying the plane, so he concentrated on diagnosing the issue.
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Old 03-20-2019, 10:31 AM   #236
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The same thing as Transport Canada and the FAA - the new radar and satellite data.
So you believe your original statement that "Until both investigations are completed, it's irresponsible to suggest grounding every 737 MAX in the world" was correct at the time? Like, you don't want to say, I was wrong when I said that?

There was obvious risk with the aircraft that literally the entire world saw with the exception of NA. You don't think you have some bias here that you should reflect on? The downside to voluntarily grounding the aircraft would be lost revenue and a disrupted schedule. That sucks, but is very recoverable. A crashed plane would kill 100+ and could sink the company. I am really disappointed in WestJet for not choosing to ground the planes.

In the MD&A in the 2017 Annual Report, management had this to say:
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A major safety incident involving our aircraft during operations could cause substantial repair or replacement costs to the damaged aircraft, a disruption in service, significant claims relating to injured guests and other parties and a negative impact on our reputation for safety, all of which may adversely affect our ability to attract and retain guests.
You're an investor in WestJet. From that standpoint alone I would think your first instinct would be to err on the side of caution. I'm surprised you wouldn't want to ground the planes, wait for the investigative results, then put them back in service. You wanted to keep flying them while waiting for the results. That's crazy to me and as you can hopefully see in retrospect was the wrong approach.
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Old 03-20-2019, 01:52 PM   #237
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Why would it take 6 months for this info to surface?
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:21 PM   #238
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So you believe your original statement that "Until both investigations are completed, it's irresponsible to suggest grounding every 737 MAX in the world" was correct at the time? Like, you don't want to say, I was wrong when I said that?
No, I am not afraid to say I was wrong. Yes, I admit I was wrong to say "it's irresponsible to suggest grounding every 737 MAX in the world".

But what I will stand by is the fact that there was not enough definitive information at the time. Every aircraft accident has its own unique DNA, and until it was definitively known that JT610 and ET302 suffered similar circumstances, there was no hard evidence. As soon as there was, Transport Canada reversed their stance, just as I did.

I'm sure WestJet and Air Canada were preparing for the possibility of a grounding from the get go, but when the plane was flying for 2 years without issues, it's best to do your due diligence, just like it's now prudent to keep the planes grounded until the problem is fixed.

This whole story has frustrated me because of journalists who know nothing about aviation, yet paint the 737 MAX as a death trap, which it is not.

Not all the facts are known yet, but like Ryan Coke said earlier, it appears that MCAS was poorly designed, and needs improvements for sure. My (and his) issue is with all the misinformation floating around out there, and with every single little issue being attributed to MCAS.

I'd even go as far to say that when Boeing eventually fixes the issues and the MAX is re-certified to fly, the media isn't going to be chomping at the bit to declare the MAX as a safe aircraft, even if JT610 and ET302 are found to be even partially due to pilot error.

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Old 03-20-2019, 03:28 PM   #239
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Why would it take 6 months for this info to surface?
This is purely a guess on my part, but I feel like the crew of the Oct 28 flight (the Lion Air crash happened the next day with the same aircraft) didn't want to admit they were in a situation they almost didn't get out of?

I feel like it was uncovered while they checked the CVR after the first crash, whereas the CVR is almost never pulled after a successful flight. (Edit: I should add, I don't know what the data retention is on CVR's these days, but I thought I remember reading its only 30 minutes, so the previous pilots could also have finally brought it up while being interviewed, since they were the last ones to successfully fly the aircraft that crashed)
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Old 03-20-2019, 03:38 PM   #240
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I assume proper procedure would have been for the first flight pilots to log a defect in the maintenance log book, then the broken sensor should have been dealt with before the plane could fly again. There are so many layers of failure here it's almost a farce.
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