Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

Neal is not a particularly good hockey player. He is better than Lucic, and that's why Edmonton had to give up a player making quite a bit less cash than Neal to get Neal.

Calgary wanted the cash savings (and the small cap savings) and was willing to get the lesser player because Neal did not fit well with them and they hoped that Lucic would give them some small value.

None of that has really changed. Neal got off to a great start goal wise, but he still isn't a particularly effective player. he wouldn't be doing this with Calgary, and I think everyone knows that.

Treliving's bad decision was signing Neal in the first place. His decision tor trade him for Lucic was not something that really hurts Calgary; in fact, the cash savings continues to help them.

I think those who are roasting Treliving for the trade are really misplacing their criticism.

In magnitude of suckiness:

(1) Signing Neal.
(2) Keeping Neal.
(3) Trading Neal for Lucic.

Having committed Sin #1, Treliving did the best he could to get to #3. because staying at #2 was a very poor choice.

I generally agree with this, although the order of 2 and 3 are debatable. I can understand both parts of the argument. The goal scoring and production aspects of Lucic's game are unsalvageable IMO. Maybe Neal not so much, but there were obviously other factors that contributed to them wanting him off the team. Lucic gives you elements outside of goal scoring for sure.

Signing Neal was a gigantic mistake. Did they handle him the right way after signing him? To me that is an open question that we will never really know. It's 100% on him for being such a bad hockey player for the Flames, but surely the club had some idea of the personality that accompanied the player.

As for the cash savings being a big positive. That depends entirely whether that money gets plowed back into the organization. That is going to be hard to determine. Otherwise it's a big who cares for me as a hockey fan.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

I think it’s healthy to be critical and objective with the things you love, even if you’re not always right. You’re a parent, so you know you don’t always agree with the stuff your kids do. You may even lose your cool with them every now and again. But clearly you still love them, and sometimes they surprise you and prove you wrong. It’s no different for a hockey team. Yes, I do tend to be more skeptical of this team’s fortunes, because I’ve been taught by 30 years of futility to expect nothing. Other people feel differently, and I like hearing those perspectives.

What I take umbrage with is the quickness of a vocal few who make it their mission to take things to a personal level over someone’s meaningless opinions of a silly game played by millionaires. It’s usually the same few people over and over who make it tough to keep caring about contributing.

Don't disagree.

If it's personal, report it.

And I'll certainly look as well for instances.

Just make sure you're not taking it personally when people disagree with you being negative.

I honestly believe most fans lean to the positive and with that you have to honestly feel you're fighting an uphill battle to side negatively on most topics.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

As for the cash savings being a big positive. That depends entirely whether that money gets plowed back into the organization. That is going to be hard to determine. Otherwise it's a big who cares for me as a hockey fan.

Calgary's owners have never sat on a pile of money, they certainly spend to the cap. But they certainly haven't gone out of their way to spend a lot more than that in buying out contracts. I think we can assume that the extra cash will be spent on the team in some fashion.

[Johnhitbox]

This thread is still a thing? I think it’s safe to say at this very early point in the season, the flames have not won this trade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Johnny Makarov]

Can we change the thread title to I Like James Neal for Estrada and his band of grumpy men?

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Johnhitbox

This thread is still a thing? I think it’s safe to say at this very early point in the season, the flames have not won this trade.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Its because CP, and most of the internet for that matter, is 25% analysis and 75% emotional reactions. It just so happens that the majority of emotional reactions people feel like they need to express are negative. Take the trade with Carolina thread for example. The Flames easily won that trade, and it was bumped only a handful of times, and most of the time it was in relation to Adam Fox, a player that brings up a lot of negative reactions. If you don't like the thread, don't bump it.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

Can we change the thread title to I Like James Neal for Estrada and his band of grumpy men?

For anyone looking for an example of a deliberately inflammatory drive by post...

[stang]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's not already a win for Edmonton, because I'm very confident Neal is not going to work out long term. In other words, one day management is going to wish they still had Lucic and not Neal.

Lucic already wasn’t working out. So even if we get one year of Neal playing good, it’s more of a win then Lucic would be. Not to mention the lack of a buyout proof contract, and not having to protect him during expansion, and it’s way better for Edmonton. There is nothing that can happen that would make the Oilers wish for Lucic back.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by stang

Lucic already wasn’t working out. So even if we get one year of Neal playing good, it’s more of a win then Lucic would be. Not to mention the lack of a buyout proof contract, and not having to protect him during expansion, and it’s way better for Edmonton. There is nothing that can happen that would make the Oilers wish for Lucic back.

Yeah, Oilers probably can't lose, the only remote exceptions being:

(a) Lucic scores 15 and breaks faces, Flames make playoff run and Lucic is a key contributor
(b) Neal cancers the Oilers even more than Kevin Lowe

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by stang

Lucic already wasn’t working out. So even if we get one year of Neal playing good, it’s more of a win then Lucic would be. Not to mention the lack of a buyout proof contract, and not having to protect him during expansion, and it’s way better for Edmonton. There is nothing that can happen that would make the Oilers wish for Lucic back.

I wouldn't assume the single year to be honest.

Some early PP scoring with a 45% shooting percentage may not be enough to offset his five on five play.

Lucic's contract isn't buy out proof, it lacks big cap savings motivations but it can certainly be bought out. Not sure why that gets repeated as fact when it isn't true, there were plenty of Edmonton media articles in the past two years identifying when in the future it would make sense to buy out Lucic.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

It's not already a win for Edmonton, because I'm very confident Neal is not going to work out long term. In other words, one day management is going to wish they still had Lucic and not Neal.

This is a prime example of intellectual dishonesty.

There would not be a hockey fan or analyst outside of a vocal few here on CP that would hold that opinion.

Is Neal going to be the worst player on the Oilers? bottom-3 like he was on the Flames last season .... no

Is Lucic going to be anything more than a bottom line thug with the Flames?


Even if Neal was as bad as he was in his brief time as a Flame they would have to be getting beaten in goon fights pretty often to want Lucic back.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Flamenspiel

Edmonton did lose last night, to a Blackhawk team that is first good team they played.Let’s get back to focusing on the “no good” that they represent.

Neal is a side show.

Blackhawks are a good team?

[DeluxeMoustache]

Admit it, there are things you guys really miss about Feaster.

“Intellectual honesty”

For me, integrating a new player in to the team can take time. Peters has had the bottom 6 blender out like every day is Margarita Monday.

Dougie Hamilton stunk for his first 20 games. James Neal will regress from his 100 goal pace. Lucic will settle in to some role

It is a process

[CaptainYooh]

Yes, it looks like we might be on the losing end of this trade. Yes, Treliving does make bad mistakes (this is not his first, btw). Yes, we all want Lucic to do better than he does now. Yes, it's likely going to hurt our roster management capability in the next 2-3 years.

But the more time we bitterly chew on it and the more time this thread remains at the top, the more joy it delivers to the Oilers' fans. Seriously, people. It's done. Let's move on.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

This is a prime example of intellectual dishonesty.

There would not be a hockey fan or analyst outside of a vocal few here on CP that would hold that opinion.

Is Neal going to be the worst player on the Oilers? bottom-3 like he was on the Flames last season .... no

Is Lucic going to be anything more than a bottom line thug with the Flames?


Even if Neal was as bad as he was in his brief time as a Flame they would have to be getting beaten in goon fights pretty often to want Lucic back.

You are wrong about this. And maybe, just maybe, I'm basing my opinion on stuff you haven't even considered.

[Weitz]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

You are wrong about this. And maybe, just maybe, I'm basing my opinion on stuff you haven't even considered.

The same reason you keep alluding to is why Lucic would not be playing on the Oilers this season whether the trade went through or not.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Weitz

The same reason you keep alluding to is why Lucic would not be playing on the Oilers this season whether the trade went through or not.

No it's not.

[Ruttiger]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

Yes, it looks like we might be on the losing end of this trade. Yes, Treliving does make bad mistakes (this is not his first, btw). Yes, we all want Lucic to do better than he does now. Yes, it's likely going to hurt our roster management capability in the next 2-3 years.

But the more time we bitterly chew on it and the more time this thread remains at the top, the more joy it delivers to the Oilers' fans.

This is true.

[Coach]

Still consider it a wash, even if Neal does well in Edmonton.

- There was nothing redeemable about his play here. If he left the team without anything coming back, it still would have been a win. The guy was hot garbage, it doesn't matter that he picked it up elsewhere. For all we know, being traded to Siberia was a wake up call for him and that's why he's improved. Something that wouldn't have happened here. There's no reason to think he would have improved on what happened last season if he had stayed here.

- Talking to some ex-NHLers about the deal, they universally agree that there must have been behind the scenes issues for them to make that deal after a single season of poor play on a contract that the current GM signed.

- Lucic is as advertised (ie, no good) and has still had more impact in the first few games than Neal did all season. In his first shift. People who didn't watch the Flames consistently just don't realize how utterly useless the guy was. A net negative. A single hit thrown by Lucic includes more effort than Neal's entire last season combined.

It's a deal that may work out for Edmonton, good for them. IMO that doesn't make it a bad trade. Getting Neal off the team for anything is pure gravy. I believe it'll all work out as we expected: Neal will score more points than Lucic. Edmonton will still be bad despite hot start. Flames will still be a playoff team despite rough start and Lucic's contribution to that will be minimal/non-existent, but that's better than the consistent net-negative that was James Neal.

I really wish Neal had worked here. I was excited about the signing and hopeful he would eventually turned around. But time after time I found myself screaming at the TV "WTF are you doing? Where are you going? This clown has no idea where he is on the ice. Get to the goddamned puck."

You can tell when someone is slow but trying (Lucic) or just straight up not interested in putting in more effort (Neal). You need the latter off your team. It's poisonous. It frustrates every other player and it's not surprising everyone was fed up.

[FBI]

Am I the only one that finds this early season scenario pretty funny? I cannot WAIT till the inevitable oilers collapse (yes it's coming), and Neal's collapse and then all the Staples articles of where did it all go wrong?

It's going to be so glorious!! Just hope Neal gets his 21 goals before the nuclear meltdown.