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Old 03-31-2020, 02:41 PM   #5241
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Finally, I've been to a few doctors offices in nice buildings in nice neighbourhoods. A great way to lower expenses would be to lease less expensive real estate. Like, just walking into my doctor's office - as a business guy - I can point to a dozen things I'd change on day one to lower my costs if I were looking at it as a business and that's beyond just the location.
Really? You thing the finishings in an office are too nice (in nice neighborhoods no less), therefore they shouldn't generate as much revenue for their clinic anymore? This is why physicians need to take it on the chin?

As a business guy myself, I can say this kind of crap is virtual signalling at its best. And it's a ridiculous argument to make.

Come on, you're better than this.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:41 PM   #5242
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Finally, I've been to a few doctors offices in nice buildings in nice neighbourhoods. A great way to lower expenses would be to lease less expensive real estate. Like, just walking into my doctor's office - as a business guy - I can point to a dozen things I'd change on day one to lower my costs if I were looking at it as a business and that's beyond just the location.
Well, the several doctors (and dentists) offices I've been to have been mostly crappy offices at best - so that anecdote goes two ways. In fact, most offices are not bastions of expensive real estate and design. And this comes from someone who is involved in the creation of modern workplaces everyday as part of my job.
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:42 PM   #5243
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From the 'aged like milk' file, video ironically comes from Kenney's communication advisor.



https://twitter.com/user/status/1245032979505614848
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Old 03-31-2020, 02:54 PM   #5244
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Relatively homogeneous groups like doctors, teachers, nurses, etc. can amplify their voices because of their numbers when they have an employment gripe. I think they genuinely believe what they're saying, but they are in an echo chamber and can't help but be extremely biased.

When private-sector people see their wages decrease in a private meeting between them and their employer, or when four guys are laid off from a fabrication shop, they have no voice. They just go home and grumble to their wife about their lower salary or quietly go on EI.

When a business owner goes belly up because of harsh economic realities, he just closes his doors for the last time, does his best to pay off creditors, and he'll maybe get lucky if he's counted in some statistic in a year-end report the government releases that nobody will read.

Teachers, doctors, nurses, government employees are all just-fine vocations; however, they have to recognize their salaries are paid for by the private sector. The private sector has taken an absolute pounding over the past year and it has been totally exacerbated to an almost-unbelievable extent over the past few weeks. Their salaries will have to come down to at-most being on par with other provinces.

Will we lose some? Maybe. I mean, unless they go to the States, I don't see the grass being much greener in any other province, though. Is Manitoba, Saskatchewan, New Brunswick or Quebec (good luck if you're English only) that enticing? What about Newfoundland...are we worrying about doctors heading there? I bet PEI is hiring. I'm really worried about losing doctors to those places. That leaves some parts of BC (you think your overhead will be lower in Vancouver?), but most parts aren't going to pay any more than Alberta. You have Ontario, but I hear Toronto is a bit pricey for real estate. And it sucks.

Also, complaining about overhead in Alberta is beyond tone deaf. Every single business in Calgary has the same freaking overhead. It's not like doctor's have a unique claim on expenses on that front.

The timing of the pandemic is super bad for the optics of renegotiating salaries, but that doesn't change any of the economic realities. If anything, it has increased the need for more people to take it on the chin as far as their pocket books go.

I mean, I'm sitting here with a 50% drop in business, which as a business owner, equates to at least a 50% drop in take-home pay (more because my fixed costs have barely changed). And I'm lucky. How many people on CP have been laid off over the past two weeks? But doctors are upset about a salary modification to bring things in line with the rest of the country and in line with what we can afford? GTFO.



See the problem here is that you don't understand how clinics work, and how much is paid for what. That's the problem here. Are you sure you know the ins and outs of clinic overhead? You aren't a doctor and you don't run a clinic. I'm confident the overhead for a medical clinic isn't the same as a fast food restaurant.





It's also not mainly about money, you aren't paying attention to what's occurred. This government has ignored, and screwed doctors over, tore up their contract, offered a new contract that they can terminate as they see fit, and attacked health care workers repeatedly.


Again, doctors came forward with offers on how to reduce expenditures by over $100 million. The government didn't even consider their offer, brought in a private app with telus that they pay a useless doctor located somewhere else without access to your records DOUBLE the amount they pay our own.


That's a slap in the face and a way to push private health care.



I've seen first hand what these changes have done and how it's affected doctors, and trust me you don't understand the situation.



Based on the 1 billion dollar loan and needless corporate tax cuts, does the private sector know that their wages are paid with public funds? See I can write silly takes too.



How do you know their pay cut brings them in line with the rest of the country? Doctors were informed today, or tomorrow morning (not sure if they've gotten all the changes yet). They knew of a few changes that would reduce their pay by 30% - 40% but not all changes.


We have a pandemic starting and if it gets bad here healthcare workers will die, they are getting sicker than many patients due to viral load exposure, and we're talking about cutting their wages and handing out billions for a pipeline.



I'm in favour of pipelines, but this government could act like adults and engage in an actual negotiation with the Alberta Medical Association instead of screwing everyone over. Instead we get children like Tyler Shandro.



Again we have a government spouting this nonsense, while paying themselves significantly higher than the rest of Canada, paying a war room 30million, and people like Matt Wolf, 200k/year to tweet nonsense.



As for doctors leaving, Alberta isn't a desirable place to live, and if you're going to earn the same elsewhere why be here? That doesn't mean that Vancouver and Toronto are the only options.



The family medicine program in Calgary had the most unfilled spots in it's history this year. Does that make it sound like Doctors want to come here? Especially if the government gets to tell you where you have to work?


This isn't just about money.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:00 PM   #5245
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There are zero people in Canada that would argue doctors are not critical to have.

I'd say the more eye opening reality we've seen with the pandemic is how the stock boy at Safeway is critical whereas before we may not have thought so. Same with the truckers, and farmers, and the support staff that keep all of them going.

Also, a salary adjustment doesn't necessarily mean they will no longer be well paid. It's possible they are still well paid in spite of a salary reduction.

Finally, I've been to a few doctors offices in nice buildings in nice neighbourhoods. A great way to lower expenses would be to lease less expensive real estate. Like, just walking into my doctor's office - as a business guy - I can point to a dozen things I'd change on day one to lower my costs if I were looking at it as a business and that's beyond just the location.
I forgot when the government attacked truckers, and grocery store workers.

Where did anyone say they still wouldn't earn a decent living? That's subjective. There's a little more stress, pressure, education and importance in being a doctor than there is working in a grocery store. See, anyone can work in a grocery store, and many people can drive a truck.

Not many people can be a good doctor, or nurse.

This is one of the strangest arguments I've seen on this message board. So that doctors office in the strip mall on centre street in building that's 60 years old is too nice.. Gotcha, they should set up tents under the memorial drive overpass..
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:04 PM   #5246
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You didn't read the context of my post.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:11 PM   #5247
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Really? You thing the finishings in an office are too nice (in nice neighborhoods no less), therefore they shouldn't generate as much revenue for their clinic anymore? This is why physicians need to take it on the chin?

As a business guy myself, I can say this kind of crap is virtual signalling at its best. And it's a ridiculous argument to make.

Come on, you're better than this.
Please read the comment to which I'm replying before snipping 1% of what I said and taking it out of context.

AFireInside said this:

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See the problem is you don't understand how doctors are paid. Yes they are paid more, but overhead and everything associated with it is higher. A family doctor still makes good money, but they should. You will continually see that the average pay for a family doctor in Alberta is well over 300,000. That's inaccurate. That's what they bill, not what they earn. I know for a fact that clinics are barely getting by after paying overhead. That's what people don't seem to understand.
I know there are a lot of costs that go into overhead. I just think if you're looking to net more money and are asking the government for more money to do that, maybe, just maybe, you don't need an office on Lake Bonavista. Like, you could have the exact same business in a building that doesn't have an elevator, doesn't have an atrium, and doesn't have the expenses associated with that.

Let's not pretend all doctors offices have trimmed all the fat from their businesses. I'm certain there is fat yet to be trimmed. Maybe it would be worthwhile for the government to employ some business consultants to help doctors lower their expenses to net more money from their business. Revenue and expenses. Those are your levers. Expenses they can control even with suppressed revenue. It's what literally every business on planet earth is doing right now - looking to lower expenses.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:18 PM   #5248
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^^ I’m not sure that’s relevant to the brain drain discussion.

A doctor who is poor at managing expenses in Alberta will be poor in Ontario and vice versa. So relative costs rather than efficiency is what matters
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:22 PM   #5249
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Your context was clear. You are arguing that fat needs to be trimmed, including lavish office furnishings. Then you say that doctors can do a better job of overhead.

It's very evident that you just don't trust what the physicians are telling us - that they need to have decisions made for them, and they are screwing the pooch.

But please - do tell us, and more importantly physicians who run clinics, how they can better improve their overhead. Heck, please tell us how these docs haven't trimmed the fat. I'm interested to see how you break this down. Physicians - who have to pay for rent, salaries, equipment, and business operation costs - in addition to saving and improving the lives of Albertans while exposing themselves to risk, disease and infection regularly - clearly need to take a better cue.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:25 PM   #5250
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Please read the comment to which I'm replying before snipping 1% of what I said and taking it out of context.

AFireInside said this:



I know there are a lot of costs that go into overhead. I just think if you're looking to net more money and are asking the government for more money to do that, maybe, just maybe, you don't need an office on Lake Bonavista. Like, you could have the exact same business in a building that doesn't have an elevator, doesn't have an atrium, and doesn't have the expenses associated with that.

Let's not pretend all doctors offices have trimmed all the fat from their businesses. I'm certain there is fat yet to be trimmed. Maybe it would be worthwhile for the government to employ some business consultants to help doctors lower their expenses to net more money from their business. Revenue and expenses. Those are your levers. Expenses they can control even with suppressed revenue. It's what literally every business on planet earth is doing right now - looking to lower expenses.

I read the context when I replied..

The majority of doctors offices aren't in amazing facilities. Look at any mediocre strip mall. You'll likely find a doctors office.

I know for a fact that it's not changing the situation many of those clinics are going through.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:42 PM   #5251
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I read the context when I replied..

The majority of doctors offices aren't in amazing facilities. Look at any mediocre strip mall. You'll likely find a doctors office.

I know for a fact that it's not changing the situation many of those clinics are going through.


I would seriously look at relocating elsewhere in Canada or throughout the world to look after yourself if you or your partner feel that unappreciated.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:43 PM   #5252
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I would seriously look at relocating elsewhere in Canada or throughout the world to look after yourself if you or your partner feel that unappreciated.

Thanks tips.

Most doctors in Alberta feel extremely unappreciated right now. It's pretty consistent.

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Old 03-31-2020, 03:52 PM   #5253
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I read the context when I replied..

The majority of doctors offices aren't in amazing facilities. Look at any mediocre strip mall. You'll likely find a doctors office.

I know for a fact that it's not changing the situation many of those clinics are going through.
Well then maybe I don't understand what goes into the overhead and you could shed some light on it. I'm thinking overhead is utilities, rent, insurance, office supplies, admin help, accounting, etc. Is there something I'm missing? Most offices I've seen have a minimum of two doctors working in them. If both are pulling in $300,000 revenue, the admin and rent are going to take $100k of that, other expenses at $50k then maybe doctors are making $225,000? Okay, doesn't seem terrible to me. But I'm just winging it on those numbers. I do know you've brought up overhead on more than one occasion and my point is every business has overhead. Is a doctor's overhead different from other businesses? It seems like it would be less to me. No great material costs, no food spoilage, no theft, few HR headaches with a small staff, etc.

Do we have actual numbers of current take home versus new take home? Like how bad is the change (setting aside some doctors' feelings are hurt that Kenney doesn't value/respect them to the extent they feel they deserve)?
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:54 PM   #5254
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Thanks tips.

Most doctors in Alberta feel extremely unappreciated right now. It's pretty consistent.
Okay, everyone feels unappreciated right now. Engineers. Geologists. Restaurateurs. Teachers. Office guys still working when half their colleagues have been laid off. The guy making T-shirts for sports teams. The guy that puts on trade shows. The wedding planner. I mean, who is happy with the current economic situation?

Doctors and nurses have incredible job security during this pandemic. My nurse friend told me - and I quote - "I feel bad, but I'm raking it in with all my overtime right now" just this week.
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Old 03-31-2020, 03:56 PM   #5255
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Doctors and nurses have incredible job security during this pandemic. My nurse friend told me - and I quote - "I feel bad, but I'm raking it in with all my overtime right now" just this week.
Yeah, and they deserve it... it's a goddamn PANDEMIC
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:00 PM   #5256
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Yeah, and they deserve it... it's a goddamn PANDEMIC
That's correct, Muta.
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:03 PM   #5257
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That's correct, Muta.
This was you reacting to the serotonin release after writing that:

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Old 03-31-2020, 04:16 PM   #5258
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Well then maybe I don't understand what goes into the overhead and you could shed some light on it. I'm thinking overhead is utilities, rent, insurance, office supplies, admin help, accounting, etc. Is there something I'm missing? Most offices I've seen have a minimum of two doctors working in them. If both are pulling in $300,000 revenue, the admin and rent are going to take $100k of that, other expenses at $50k then maybe doctors are making $225,000? Okay, doesn't seem terrible to me. But I'm just winging it on those numbers. I do know you've brought up overhead on more than one occasion and my point is every business has overhead. Is a doctor's overhead different from other businesses? It seems like it would be less to me. No great material costs, no food spoilage, no theft, few HR headaches with a small staff, etc.

Do we have actual numbers of current take home versus new take home? Like how bad is the change (setting aside some doctors' feelings are hurt that Kenney doesn't value/respect them to the extent they feel they deserve)?
Keep in mind the nurse (s) they have in the office are part of the staff, not just the receptionist so some significant staffing costs. And in regards to material costs keep in mind medical supplies probably are not cheap. I would guess that if anything the material costs are pretty high.

Caveat, I'm assuming nursing staff and cost of medical supplies are 100% paid for by the individual offices, not AHS. I have no direct knowledge myself.
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:21 PM   #5259
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Keep in mind the nurse (s) they have in the office are part of the staff, not just the receptionist so some significant staffing costs. And in regards to material costs keep in mind medical supplies probably are not cheap. I would guess that if anything the material costs are pretty high.

Caveat, I'm assuming nursing staff and cost of medical supplies are 100% paid for by the individual offices, not AHS. I have no direct knowledge myself.
Yeah, I don't know either. I hear a lot about "overhead," how "i don't get it," how doctors have been "screwed over" and "attacked," how it's a "slap in the face," how - again - "i don't get it," etc.

I'm just curious about what their net was before and what it will be now. If they're taking a 25% kick to the nuts, that is very significant. If they're freaking out over a 5% reduction in take-home pay, I'm thinking they got off insanely light given the current state of the economy. What is the number? That's what matters.

I'm not so concerned that they feel underappreciated because I think that's a universal feeling we all share right now.
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Old 03-31-2020, 04:26 PM   #5260
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Do family docs make $300k? I thought the government paid $15/patient visit. That's $60/hour. Not doing the math, but it ain't $300k. Unless there are other payments...
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