Hong Kong Activist Joshua Wong quits and other China news

[CaptainCrunch]

New security laws pass in Hong Kong and he quits his pro democracy group. Probably because he realizes that he'll end up dead somewhere or an organ donor.


https://globalnews.ca/news/7123624/joshua-wong-quits/


Meanwhile China changes it birth control laws


https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/uighur...trol-1.5630870

The Chinese government is taking draconian measures to slash birth rates among Uighurs and other minorities as part of a sweeping campaign to curb its Muslim population, even as it encourages some of the country's Han majority to have more children.


While individual women have spoken out before about forced birth control, the practice is far more widespread and systematic than previously known, according to an AP investigation based on government statistics, state documents and interviews with 30 ex-detainees, family members and a former detention camp instructor. The campaign over the past four years in the far west region of Xinjiang is leading to what some experts are calling a form of "demographic genocide."


The state regularly subjects minority women to pregnancy checks, and forces intrauterine devices, sterilization and even abortion on hundreds of thousands, the interviews and data show. Even while the use of IUDs and sterilization has fallen nationwide, it is rising sharply in Xinjiang.

The people in Hong Kong are getting hammered.


The world really should be rallying against that government.

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

New security laws pass in Hong Kong and he quits his pro democracy group. Probably because he realizes that he'll end up dead somewhere or an organ donor.


https://globalnews.ca/news/7123624/joshua-wong-quits/


Meanwhile China changes it birth control laws


https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/uighur...trol-1.5630870





The people in Hong Kong are getting hammered.


The world really should be rallying against that government.

One awful government at a time
The world's mouth is still agape with everything going on in the U.S.

[flylock shox]

I suspect the awfulness of the US government is a significant factor in the awfulness of the Chinese government.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more than a couple of authoritarian governments try to squeeze an atrocity or two in before the US election in the fall. Sort of a going out of business sale.

[81MC]

‘Changes is birth control laws’ is an awfully pleasant way of saying ‘continues its genocide of the Uighurs’. In a particularly heinous way, of course.

Far as I’m concerned, any of us who continue to financially support that nation is complacent in its crimes, at best. It’s a damn shame the average westerner feels so helpless in living their life any way that doesn’t aid and abet this atrocity.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

I suspect the awfulness of the US government is a significant factor in the awfulness of the Chinese government.

I wouldn't be surprised to see more than a couple of authoritarian governments try to squeeze an atrocity or two in before the US election in the fall. Sort of a going out of business sale.

Chinese government has been awful for decades. Remember Tiananmen?

Even after that, it was the West's decision to do business with them and capitalize on that massive market. So this is the result. The West has handcuffed themselves because money talks.

[manwiches]

Paging 'AnonymousStranger'. I have my popcorn ready

[FlameOn]

Hong Kong protester slogans criminalized under the new national security laws. Protesters can be deported to China for non-public trial. Seriously the CCP is the height of insecurity.

https://hongkongfp.com/2020/07/02/br...-secessionist/

[Cali Panthers Fan]

"Our communist country is nothing like the Soviet Union! Look how modern and progressive we are! Look at all the cool #### we make!"

*glances at new Hong Kong laws passed and the immediate use of the laws to go after political dissidents and writing that criticizes the government*

"What?! Come on, our laws that suppress free speech and political criticism are nothing like the laws that suppressed free speech and political criticism in the Soviet Union. We don't even have a Siberia to send them to!"


The more things change...the more they stay the same. To all those young idealists who love communism after taking a single political science class, this is what you get in that system, over, and over, and over again.

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Chinese government has been awful for decades. Remember Tiananmen?

Even after that, it was the West's decision to do business with them and capitalize on that massive market. So this is the result. The West has handcuffed themselves because money talks.

Wasn’t there a thought, or at least lip service, that more investment in China would solidify ties and help moderate their positions? Clearly that has failed

[nik-]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Wasn’t there a thought, or at least lip service, that more investment in China would solidify ties and help moderate their positions? Clearly that has failed

It wasn't a thought or lip service, it was basically an assumed outcome. The reaction to what's been happening has taken way too long, and hopefully it's not too late.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

"Our communist country is nothing like the Soviet Union! Look how modern and progressive we are! Look at all the cool #### we make!"

*glances at new Hong Kong laws passed and the immediate use of the laws to go after political dissidents and writing that criticizes the government*

"What?! Come on, our laws that suppress free speech and political criticism are nothing like the laws that suppressed free speech and political criticism in the Soviet Union. We don't even have a Siberia to send them to!"


The more things change...the more they stay the same. To all those young idealists who love communism after taking a single political science class, this is what you get in that system, over, and over, and over again.

What on earth are you talking about? China is not the Soviet Union. There are many valid criticisms of Chinese government, but to say modern China is just communism like the Soviet Union is just uninformed.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Wasn’t there a thought, or at least lip service, that more investment in China would solidify ties and help moderate their positions? Clearly that has failed

Yes they thought so. They also thought Xi Jinping was a moderate reformer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...ns-door-reform

[Itse]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Yes they thought so. They also thought Xi Jinping was a moderate reformer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.the...ns-door-reform

Every new Saudi leader in the last 30 years has also been a "moderate reformer" in western media. Because the western media is gullible (and also because western media likes to think that western educated people would be moderate).

As for China, in the nineties it was a widely accepted "truism" that capitalism and democracy are inseparable, so it was a very genuine belief among most countries leaderships that introducing more capitalism to China (and Russia and other autocratic former soviet states) would automatically lead to advancements in democracy. This was a major part of "the end of history" that was presumed to be happening after the collapse of the soviet block, and a central part of the Clinton era optimism.

Of course now we all know (something that leftists have been saying all along) that capitalism and dictatorships actually go together quite beautifully, and instead of capitalism bringing democracy to the east it's played a notable part in eroding democracies in the west.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by dammage79

One awful government at a time
The world's mouth is still agape with everything going on in the U.S.

Let's not kid ourselves. Having an inflammatory leader and large protests/social issues is no where near on the same level as genocide against the Uyghurs, labour & death camps, and not to mention forced live organ donations and a whole myriad of other human rights complaints.

The media might make you want to think things are bad in the US, but jesus, its sunshine and rainbows there compared to the hell that is China for anyone of non-Han background.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Let's not kid ourselves. Having an inflammatory leader and large protests/social issues is no where near on the same level as genocide against the Uyghurs, labour & death camps, and not to mention forced live organ donations and a whole myriad of other human rights complaints.

The media might make you want to think things are bad in the US, but jesus, its sunshine and rainbows there compared to the hell that is China for anyone of non-Han background.

There was a story in the UK that a shipment of made in China hair pieces, wigs and extensions were seized because they were made from human hair. Wonder where they got that from.


We can talk comparatives of the old Soviet System and the Chinese system of Communism. The Soviet system had a strong anti-semetic slant to it and mistreated minorities, even though a lot of members of the Politburo and senior officials were jewish.


With the Chinese government, the inherent xenophobia has been around for generations and incorporated into their own interpretation of Communism.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Ducay

Let's not kid ourselves. Having an inflammatory leader and large protests/social issues is no where near on the same level as genocide against the Uyghurs, labour & death camps, and not to mention forced live organ donations and a whole myriad of other human rights complaints.

The media might make you want to think things are bad in the US, but jesus, its sunshine and rainbows there compared to the hell that is China for anyone of non-Han background.

Actually, what's going on in the US is quite relevant to HK and China, because Trump's authoritarian leanings have been legitimizing and excusing authoritarian practices around the world for the last 3+ years. It has even been reported that Trump told Xi that he supports what China is doing with the Uighurs, so while the US doesn't have what's happening to the Uighurs it does have a relationship with what's happening to the Uighurs.

Even more than just Trump's support of authoritarianism, the rise in anti-Chinese sentiment in the US, spearheaded by Trumpublicans, has been shown to be increasing support among Chinese abroad for their government back home. It shouldn't really be surprising that casting people as the enemy makes them less inclined to support the society they've come to live in, but that's what's going on.

Also, the bit about “anyone of non-Han background” isn't accurate. There are 55 officially recognized ethnic groups in China, of which the Uighurs are one recognized ethnic minority. It wouldn't even be accurate to say that everyone who is from a Muslim minority, such as Hui people, are facing what the Uighurs are. Obviously, I'm not excusing or trying to minimize what's happening with the Uighurs, but the assertion that everyone who's not Han is being persecuted is just not true.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Itse

Every new Saudi leader in the last 30 years has also been a "moderate reformer" in western media. Because the western media is gullible (and also because western media likes to think that western educated people would be moderate).

As for China, in the nineties it was a widely accepted "truism" that capitalism and democracy are inseparable, so it was a very genuine belief among most countries leaderships that introducing more capitalism to China (and Russia and other autocratic former soviet states) would automatically lead to advancements in democracy. This was a major part of "the end of history" that was presumed to be happening after the collapse of the soviet block, and a central part of the Clinton era optimism.

Of course now we all know (something that leftists have been saying all along) that capitalism and dictatorships actually go together quite beautifully, and instead of capitalism bringing democracy to the east it's played a notable part in eroding democracies in the west.

The rise of a middle class does always bring greater democracy.....eventually, in 50 or a 100 years assuming it maintains its capitalist path China will be more democratic than it is now, it is now far more democratic than it was in 1965 but the pathway that took the west hundreds of years, that the US has only begrudgingly entered into itself in my lifetime and still is far from democratic for vast swathes of its coloured population, well China will take a bit longer than 3 or 4 decades

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by afc wimbledon

The rise of a middle class does always bring greater democracy.....eventually, in 50 or a 100 years assuming it maintains its capitalist path China will be more democratic than it is now, it is now far more democratic than it was in 1965 but the pathway that took the west hundreds of years, that the US has only begrudgingly entered into itself in my lifetime and still is far from democratic for vast swathes of its coloured population, well China will take a bit longer than 3 or 4 decades

Unbridled capitalism certainly seems to be hurting American democracy, just as it is hurting the middle class. The highest rated democracies are countries with largely free but well-regulated market economies and robust social welfare systems. That's actually where China is headed too, though whether or not that leads to a more democratic society is very questionable.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Unbridled capitalism certainly seems to be hurting American democracy, just as it is hurting the middle class. The highest rated democracies are countries with largely free but well-regulated market economies and robust social welfare systems. That's actually where China is headed too, though whether or not that leads to a more democratic society is very questionable.

It's very strange, China is socialist in many areas and capitalist in many areas. Take healthcare for example. A hybrid of public and private healthcare, mostly private. Private meaning paid for or guanxi (personal relationships). Imagine a world here you can scalp tickets to see the doctor. So you've got these massive multi-plex hospitals for the rich and connected and then you have hospitals with nothing in podunk village. This causes severe inequality between the rich and the poor.


I've always said, one of the main thing that holds communism back is crony-ism, which is is opposite of the communist ideology of equality for all.

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by JohnnyB

Unbridled capitalism certainly seems to be hurting American democracy, just as it is hurting the middle class. The highest rated democracies are countries with largely free but well-regulated market economies and robust social welfare systems. That's actually where China is headed too, though whether or not that leads to a more democratic society is very questionable.

it isnt capitalism that gives rise to democracy its the middle class, it matters not what system you have if you have a large middle class they will demand a say in things and they have the money/property to make it happen