The Ongoing "Am I the %^&hole?" Thread

[afc wimbledon]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Let's be clear here: I was not withholding a kid from his parents. He was in my house, and did not want to leave. This was a simple choice that I gave to a 15-year-old who is regularly at my house: Did he want to stay, or did he want to leave? He made the choice to stay. I think my handling would likely have been a little different with a younger child, but kids at that age have to be afforded the opportunity to make some of these decisions for themselves. If my kids decide to leave and go live somewhere else, at this point in their lives there is not a lot I can or should do to stop them. They stay because this is their home: it's a safe place with loving parents who treat them with dignity and respect.

As to whether or not I made the right choice by calling the police when I did, all I can say was that it was an incredibly stressful period of hours, and in the end I believe we made the right decision. I don't know these people well, and I certainly did not feel equipped to be the go-between in the moment. It seemed at the time that the police were much better equipped to mediate, and they resolved things pretty satisfactorily, I think.


NO. My son's friend was asked where he wanted to go, and he decided to spend time at his grandmother's in Surrey. A family friend of his picked him up and drove him out there.

As I have dealt with this countless countless times over the years as a foster parent I will throw in my approach, typically when I find someone has snuck into the house after I have sent any extras home, and then I get told he/she cant go home because the parent is an arse, crackhead or something along those lines my answer is always

'well that's terrible, obviously I cant make Johnny go home but I have a responsibility if he's here now that I know what's happening, I have to call his parent and let them know little Johnny is safe, they are still the parent after all and not only would I get into huge trouble if I didn't but also whether they are a good or bad parent I am sure they will still be worried when their kid doesn't come home and leaving them to worry is just as cruel as anything they might have done, if it is as bad as you say we can call the ministry and they will take them into care tonight or I can give him a ride home as its late or obviously he can take off while I'm calling his dad'

the italic section tends to get thrown in more if I think its just an attempt to get away with a sleep over and the parents actually fine

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Leeman4Gilmour

Sorry man, if that kid wasn't in any kind of danger, but just didn't want to go home because he was pissed at his parents and you backed him....gotta go with YTA on that one.

The whole situation was a little more complicated than that. The kid needed space. I was affording him that. We insisted when he arrived that his parents needed to know he was at our house, and he told them. This was @ about 4 in the afternoon. I believe that had they responded by giving him time to cool down, he probably would have gone home on his own. But they responded by giving him a one-choice ultimatum: You have 30 mins to get home. Within a few mins of that, they were at our house and freaking out.

And I was not in a position to know one way or the other whether the kid was in danger. With his parents screaming at him on our driveway for 30 mins, it seemed like the most responsible thing to do was not to push him out the door and wish him the best of luck. Having never been in that situation before, and with the uncertainty about what they might do, it seemed prudent to call the police after it didn't look like a path to resolution was there in the current circumstances.

Maybe it's just me and my own relationship with my kids, but when they need space, they get it. Sometimes they get pissed, and need to go for a run or a bike ride, and we let them go. We do so because we are confident that they are old enough and smart enough to know when it's time to come home, and they always do. That strikes me as a much more sensible approach than to attempt to restrain them.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

The whole situation was a little more complicated than that. The kid needed space. I was affording him that. We insisted when he arrived that his parents needed to know he was at our house, and he told them. This was @ about 4 in the afternoon. I believe that had they responded by giving him time to cool down, he probably would have gone home on his own. But they responded by giving him a one-choice ultimatum: You have 30 mins to get home. Within a few mins of that, they were at our house and freaking out.

And I was not in a position to know one way or the other whether the kid was in danger. With his parents screaming at him on our driveway for 30 mins, it seemed like the most responsible thing to do was not to push him out the door and wish him the best of luck. Having never been in that situation before, and with the uncertainty about what they might do, it seemed prudent to call the police after it didn't look like a path to resolution was there in the current circumstances.

Maybe it's just me and my own relationship with my kids, but when they need space, they get it. Sometimes they get pissed, and need to go for a run or a bike ride, and we let them go. We do so because we are confident that they are old enough and smart enough to know when it's time to come home, and they always do. That strikes me as a much more sensible approach than to attempt to restrain them.

I think your intentions were good, so in no way were you an intentional a-hole here. If I tell my kids to be home in half an hour, though, I expect them to be home in half an hour. If they stayed out and were enabled by another adult, I'd be super fataing mad.

In your shoes, I would have told the kid to get home as his parents were expecting him. I don't think it's appropriate to impose your parenting style on their family. Having expectations for your minor child to come home when you tell them to come home is fairly standard practice. You were a party to a major disrespect to them IMO.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I think your intentions were good, so in no way were you an intentional a-hole here. If I tell my kids to be home in half an hour, though, I expect them to be home in half an hour. If they stayed out and were enabled by another adult, I'd be super fataing mad.

In your shoes, I would have told the kid to get home as his parents were expecting him. I don't think it's appropriate to impose your parenting style on their family. Having expectations for your minor child to come home when you tell them to come home is fairly standard practice. You were a party to a major disrespect to them IMO.

You are welcome to your opinion. I am convinced that we made the right choice.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Sliver your description there makes it sound like: kid was there, normally, you asked him to be home in 30mins. Absolutely you’d expect that.

How I understood this was: Kid showed up to specifically get away from his parents, and was immediately asked to return. That’s a different situation... although I have no idea how I’d handle it. Unless I misunderstood.

[Wormius]

I would probably respond in the same way if any of my kids’ friend came over in some distress. But, I am not sure how much prying into the specific situation you can do.

If it were, “my parents won’t let me play video games at home anymore” vs. “my parents are throwing dishes and cutlery at each other”. If the former, I would encourage them to go home, the latter they should probably stay or make arrangements at another family members place if they could.

[monkeyman]

I was in a similar position with my kid years ago. I handled it differently, I chose not to get involved. It worked out well, they ended up in counselling and their relationship got much better.
Anyway, I've thought about that day and I wish I had handled it differently. I wish I had invited the other parent in for a coffee or something, given them someone to talk to, assure them I understood how difficult it is being a parent of a teenager, defused the situation before sending them on their way, and let them know I was available if they needed someone to talk to. So do I think it could have been handled better, sure, but it's difficult to know what to do in the heat of the moment.

[troutman]

This is a good example of how “defunding” the police could be helpful. Instead of calling the police, we could call in a skilled social worker to mediate the situation.

[monkeyman]

But it's quicker and easier to just shoot them.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

If my kids decide to leave and go live somewhere else, at this point in their lives there is not a lot I can or should do to stop them.

Just so you're aware there is a huge difference in laws between 15 year olds and 16 year olds. I don't believe you can simply let a 15 year old "run away". You certainly can't just let a 15-year-old-runaway stay with you. That's breaking the law.

Originally Posted by https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/C-46/section-280.html

280 (1) Every person who, without lawful authority, takes or causes to be taken a person under the age of 16 years out of the possession of and against the will of the parent or guardian of that person or of any other person who has the lawful care or charge of that person is guilty of

(a) an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term of not more than five years; or

(b) an offence punishable on summary conviction.

You also are required to report to the police if you have reasonable and probable grounds that a child (defined as anyone under 18) is in need of intervention.

Originally Posted by https://www.canlii.org/en/ab/laws/stat/rsa-2000-c-c-12/latest/rsa-2000-c-c-12.html#sec4_smooth

4(1) Any person who has reasonable and probable grounds to believe that a child is in need of intervention shall forthwith report the matter to

(a) a director, or

(b) a police officer.

You really had no choice but to call the police. If you let him stay, you would have been breaking the law. If you kicked him out suspecting he was being abused and didn't call the cops, you would have been breaking the law. It was really a question of whether you called 911 and had it settled there, or kicked him out and called one of the hotlines. Either way, pretty much same results.

There's not really even wiggle room for someone to argue that you made the wrong choice. You did the only legal choice you had if it was reasonable to believe he was in trouble (and given his actions, it absolutely appears to be the case).

[Oling_Roachinen]

So 281 deals with children under 14 and is more clear that simply harbouring is enough of a crime and could be done passively.

280 is for children under 16 and requires active action to take or causes to be taken the child out of the possession of a guardian. So if a 14 or 15 year old came to your house, even knowingly as a runaway, you could let him stay, but if you refused the parents access to your house when they came (and for the duration that the child was there) that might be enough to invoke the active action.

And if your son had somehow persuaded him, he would fall under 281.

285 is the obvious catch all to prevent good people like Textcritic from facing criminal charges for trying to help a child:

No one shall be found guilty of an offence under sections 280 to 283 if the court is satisfied that the taking, enticing away, concealing, detaining, receiving or harbouring of any young person was necessary to protect the young person from danger of imminent harm or if the person charged with the offence was escaping from danger of imminent harm.

But then you get back to Alberta's Child, Youth and Family Enhancement Act which requires a person to report when a child is in danger (or reasonably expected to be).

So yeah, I don't see any other option but to call 911 (or some other police hotline) in Textcritic's situation.

[chubeyr1]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

You are welcome to your opinion. I am convinced that we made the right choice.

You overstepped here.

Tough situation for sure. Yet you are in the wrong.

With that said thank you for caring so much. Yet you are making a parents job harder.

You talk about your kids and how they act! This is not your kid. You have no idea how they act.

I have no horse in this race. I dont really care one way or the other. Just saying your actions are wrong. They may feel right but they are wrong.

Raise your own kids and instill your values into them. This is not your child!

You have as much right as I do with this child. None!

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by chubeyr1

Raise your own kids and instill your values into them. This is not your child!

You have as much right as I do with this child. None!

It isn't about rights. It's about legal requirement.

Every single person in Alberta is required to report to the police or a director (child welfare), if they have reasonably belief that a child could be in danger. This is the law.

Textcritic was reasonable to assume a 15 year old who is refusing to go home could be in danger especially as Textcritic considered the parents actions to be erratic. Reasonably expecting the child to be in danger and not calling the police would be criminal. He could face up to 6 months and a $10,000 fine.

Admittedly, I would be shocked if a situation like Textcritic described would have resulted in the charge outside of the child going home and being assaulted (or worse). It would be near absurd. But it is the law:

https://www.qp.alberta.ca/documents/Acts/c12.pdf

4(1) Any person who has reasonable and probable grounds to
believe that a child is in need of intervention shall forthwith report
the matter to
(a) a director, or
(b) a police officer.
...
(6) Any person who fails to comply with subsection (1) is guilty of
an offence and liable to a fine of not more than $10 000 or to
imprisonment for a term of not more than 6 months, or to both a
fine and imprisonment.

[getbak]

Textcritic lives in BC. I don't know how different their laws are in this sort of situation.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Not much difference. Still a duty to report. Just now a child is anyone under 19 instead of 18. Same punishments for failure to report.

Biggest difference is police are to be called only if the child is suspected to be in immediate danger, otherwise contacting Ministry of Children and Family Development (child welfare) is the requirement.

Probably a fair judgement call with 911.

Also, I've been saying if the child is in danger (with the intent of meaning risk of physical/sexual harm) but both Alberta and B.C. actually require you to report for a myriad of other reasons including emotional injury.

(a) a child is emotionally injured
(i) if there is impairment of the child’s mental or emotional
functioning or development, and
(ii) if there are reasonable and probable grounds to believe
that the emotional injury is the result of
(A) rejection,
(A.1) emotional, social, cognitive or physiological neglect,
(B) deprivation of affection or cognitive stimulation,
(C) exposure to family violence or severe domestic
disharmony,
(D) inappropriate criticism, threats, humiliation,
accusations or expectations of or toward the child,
(E) the mental or emotional condition of the guardian of
the child or of anyone living in the same residence as
the child;
(F) chronic alcohol or drug abuse by the guardian or by
anyone living in the same residence as the child;

https://www2.gov.bc.ca/assets/gov/pu...85in2folds.pdf

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is closely related to a question I have been asking of myself in recent weeks...

Have we become "that family" in our neighbourhood?

We have lived here for fifteen years. New neighbours have moved in on either side of me in the past six months. The neighbours to my right are easy-going and friendly; the neighbours to my left do nothing but complain about their house, the neighbourhood, and how awful it is to live here.

I have two boys in high school, and another who just turned 21—he is still at home, but working. About six weeks ago one of my boys's friends came to our house because he was fighting with his parents. We have attempted to build a relationship with these people for the last year, but have found it extremely difficult because of how paranoid they are of everything, and because they are convinced that my kid is an instigator of trouble. Anyhow, they insisted that their 15-year-old son come home. He did not want to go. They were exasperated at us for not sending him away, but in our minds we thought he was most likely better off in our house than he would be wandering around the streets. They threatened to call the police, and then insisted they were coming over to get him. The father stormed up to my door and demanded his kid come home. My wife told him not to enter the house. They screamed and complained for 25 minutes, and again threatened to call the police. At this point I went ahead and called 9-1-1. Three squad cars showed up with lights and sirens to diffuse the situation, and everyone on my block noticed. It was embarrassing.

So, fast-forward to two-weeks ago. My kids were playing basketball on the driveway @ around 8:30 pm. The ball went into the up-tight neighbours's yard. My 16-year-old son climbed the fence to retrieve the ball; the neighbour saw him, lost her mind, and started screaming at him about trespassing. He says he apologised and went back to playing ball with his brother. Shortly afterwards the ball again bounced onto their driveway, and before my kid could retrieve it the neighbours ran out, grabbed the ball and went back into the house. When my kids tried to get their ball back, the neighbours would not return it. My wife and I came out to try and settle things, and the neighbours and my kids yelled back-and-forth at one another for ten minutes or so. At one point, the woman complained about the police incident from previous weeks, and then it hit me...

Have I become that neighbour? I have always thought I was a good neighbour. I try to look after my property, keep to myself, and do whatever I can to keep the peace. But have I now become the guy whose kids are trouble, and who gets visits from squad cars? How did this happen?

Last week I put a fence up between our driveways.

One suggestion, tell your kids not to jump in the neighbors back yard. I can tell you there is nothing that pisses me off more than when the kids next door jump into my back yard to get something without asking. It is completely unacceptable.

[RogerWilco]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

One thing though Textcritic, and I don't like even really implying that it may be the case but it is the purpose of this thread, but one family believes your son is an instigator of trouble, while another family is getting into yelling matches with him while you're trying to diffuse the situation. It certainly could be simply bad luck. It could also be that your son is...well a typical 16 year old. They aren't always the most Saint-like.

So is the family just paranoid? Do they have this view of all their kid's friends, or just your son? If just your son, why?

Are your neighbours really that crazy that they're waiting in the shadows to grab the ball before your sons can even get to it? And willing to escalate this all simply because a ball was in their driveway for a second?

Might be worth it to approach your neighbour without your children there to see what really happened from your neighbours' perspective. It might be as simple as they are absolute nutcases who stole a basketball from some kids because it landed on their driveway. Which at least you get your answer confirmed, you're not the #######, they are.

But if they have a different perspective, like simply for example, your children mouthing them off before this incident or continuously entering their yard after being told not to, you might not want to dismiss it completely.

I don't want to be an #######, bit it seems to me that TC needs to teach his kids some respect for neighbors. They probably had enough of the BS and taking the ball was a tipping point. How do your almost grown kids not know that it is unacceptable to jump into people private property? I learned that lesson at 5 years old. Everyone thinks their kid is an angel.

[Igotnothing]

Personally, if a neighbourhood kid had a ball drop into my yard and hopped the fence to get it, I'd have no issue with that. The statement "it's unacceptable" doesn't apply to everyone. Don't get me wrong it's fine you want kids to ask to enter your yard before getting their stuff. Just don't expect everyone to follow the same 'rules' as you.

[Weitz]

I'd only have an issue if they hopped the fence. Use the gate and I wouldn't care.

[monkeyman]

Nm