A Game of Thrones **BOOKS OFF LIMITS** v2

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by blankall

Arya is still a child. Littlefinger is the master of manipulation. Littlefinger has manipulated some of the most cunning and competent rulers out there. He finds weak points in someone's psyche and exploits them. I don't really see how this is such a stretch, and Arya's actions are totally in line with what you'd expect from someone of her age, even someone who was forced to grow up fast.

I think Arya would figure out pretty quickly that Littlefinger was up to something if she could tell that Sansa was surprised about the existence of the letter and not just that Arya had it. Littlefinger said to the maester who delivered the letter that it was being requested for Lady Stark and Arya heard that exchange.

Arya seems very much to be playing a game, and Sansa already distrusts Littlefinger and has learned from him to play the game, but they are likely not playing along side each other. They each have their own strategy and are suspicious of the other even though they don't want to harm each other while it is Littlefinger they're both concerned over.

[photon]

Originally Posted by Locke

So while it may not treat your source material (which at this juncture doesnt exist) with the reverence you expect, it is still, objectively, better than literally everything and anything else.

It's got nothing to do with reverence to the source material (which frankly suffers/will suffer from the same problem as the TV shows).

I can independently judge the quality of the TV show just fine. The reason the show worked and built up the following it did was the story telling. That's what's suffering, and that's why it's being compared to fan fiction, because fan fiction rushes from one set piece to the next without building the necessary things to hold it all together. The show did that quite well, there was plenty of time to get to hate or get attached to characters, watch them change as they struggled with things, etc.

The only reason it somewhat still works is because the foundation they've built is good, but the further they go the less the events fit into the foundation, the harder it is to feel engaged and invested.

Just like when I watch a movie that I liked but thought it could have been 10 times better with better writing, I just imagine how good the last 2 seasons could have been if they'd started this whole endgame 3 seasons ago. It's grief of loss for what could have been.

It's like watching 2 grandmasters spend hours moving their pieces to setup their endgame strategy, and then settling it with best 2 out of 3 in rock-paper-scissors.

[Mike F]

The big problem with the Arya/Sansa dynamic is that the show writers failed to ground it with any reasonable explanation.

When Arya arrives back, they have a slightly cool but definitely not hostile reunion in the crypt. What the writers want you to believe turns Arya against Sansa is Aria coming into the great Hall and seeing one of the Northern Lords and the leader of the Knights of the Vale expressing frustration with Jon having left the North to meet with Dany, and suggesting that they should've gotten behind Sansa as Queen of the North from the beginning. Sansa's response to this was to say she's flattered by their offer, but that Jon was their king and was doing what he thought was best. So completely supporting Jon.

The writers want you to believe that that exchange somehow convinced Arya that Sansa was actually scheming to put herself into power. Arya suggests that Sansa should've beheaded those two individuals, and that Sansa choosing not to do that was further proof that she wanted to keep them on her side to support her ultimate claim for the throne.

That makes absolutely no sense, IMO. I can't see how any rational person would take that as anything but a perfectly fine response by Sansa. But the writers wanted this conflict between the two sisters, so they just ham-fistedly shoved it in.

As for the notion that Tinordi and others of us who have become seriously disappointed with the quality of the show should stay away so as not to bother those of you who can just turn your brain off to the lack of logic and enjoy the spectacle.... Too bad. Everyone posting in this thread has dedicated a lot of time to this series, and, speaking for myself, when I see what had been going along as one of the great TV shows of all time being watered-down in an effort to save money and rush towards the end, I want to vent about it amongst other viewers the same way I would want to celebrate great accomplishments with other viewers. And that's what this board is for, IMO. Sharing experiences good and bad, not just cheerleading.

Here's my prediction: a lot of people who are so caught up with the excitement of where the story arc is going and finally getting answers to some long-running questions/potential storylines that they're willing to excuse the way in which the stories being told will, once those questions are answered and storylines resolved, look back with a lot more disappointment at how the quality of the show has lapsed.

For truly great TV shows, which deserve re-watching, the joy when re-watching them comes not from getting to the big answers, which are known from the start, but in revisiting all the great individual moments along the way and, hopefully, seeing how all those great individual moments inevitably led to those final answers. The problem with this last season is that all of the connective tissue between big moments has been stripped away, leaving huge logic gaps, plot holes, and/or decisions not supported by any internal logic. On re-watching, all of those things and their marked difference from the first six seasons of the show will be even more glaring and will tarnish the show's overall quality.

[GGG]

It only doesn't make sense if Sansa isn't planning on taking the North from John. If Arya can decern the truth through the game of faces the Arya's behaviour is perfectly sensible.

I'm with you on the whole group going beyond the wall. That was poorly done and made no sense. The rest of the season I think has been solid.

Also answers are never satisfying they werent in Lord of the rings or Rama or Space Odyssey or any other world building myth based show.

[JohnnyB]

Originally Posted by Mike F

...

That makes absolutely no sense, IMO. I can't see how any rational person would take that as anything but a perfectly fine response by Sansa. But the writers wanted this conflict between the two sisters, so they just ham-fistedly shoved it in.

....

Responding to an attempt to engage her in a rebellion against her king and brother with "I'm flattered, but no thank you" could certainly be seen as less than perfect, especially by another sibling.

Edit: It was also Sansa's choice of words that Jon is "doing as he sees fit", which is a choice not to back up Jon's actions. She could easily have said something like "Jon is taking on the responsibility to do what is necessary to save the north. He is making the sacrifices and showing the leadership that we asked him to. We need to trust that his leadership is right for the north. I trust his leadership and you must too." She didn't say that, and I can see how Arya would feel that was weak and self-serving rather than honourable.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

After all this serious talk, how about something a little more lighthearted?

Valyrian Steel.

Spoiler!

[DiracSpike]

I really don't get the travel time complaints. Like, are you looking for a full episode on them just sailing with the red headed guy talking about how much he wants to nail Brienne of Tarth?

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I really don't get the travel time complaints. Like, are you looking for a full episode on them just sailing with the red headed guy talking about how much he wants to nail Brienne of Tarth?

As funny as a full episode of Tormund talking about Brienne would be, I think it's about the perceived amount of time that has passed between events and how long people think it should take.

If two events happen simultaneously, or close to it, but on opposite sides of the continent and a character is somehow present during both events, people tend to think that the timeline is messed up.

In previous seasons this was less of an issue because the various storylines would rarely intersect making it easier to assume that some stories may be taking place over vastly different time periods despite being shown to the viewer in quick succession. Now that the stories and characters and constantly intertwined it is more difficult to make those assumptions. And since the story is moving so fast, it is also becoming more obvious to the viewer that travel time isn't remaining consistent. Things that were previously shown to take weeks, now seem to take days or even hours.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Mike F

For truly great TV shows, which deserve re-watching, the joy when re-watching them comes not from getting to the big answers, which are known from the start, but in revisiting all the great individual moments along the way and, hopefully, seeing how all those great individual moments inevitably led to those final answers. The problem with this last season is that all of the connective tissue between big moments has been stripped away, leaving huge logic gaps, plot holes, and/or decisions not supported by any internal logic. On re-watching, all of those things and their marked difference from the first six seasons of the show will be even more glaring and will tarnish the show's overall quality.

The hardest thing to do with a long running successful show is to end it. Breaking Bad suffered from similar issues as it's final season really wasn't that great relative to the rest of the series. GOT has more working against it as it's a much larger budget show with considerably more characters and storylines so trying to wrap up 6 years worth of story telling in a short 7 episode season and equally short final season was always going to be a monumental task that was going to disappoint some. Ideally they would have gone to 10 seasons to properly close out all the storylines but it's clear that a lot of the actors are ready to move on to other endeavors and the cost of making the show was getting more expensive every year for HBO.

[GGG]

The time problem is just them lacking having little scene to explain it. Though some are just missed by viewers complaining.

For example complaints about the Balckwater Reach battle about the Dothraki not having enough time to get there aren't valid because Jaimie says to Tarley get them to finish the Harvest, then wants to whip his soliders for being too slow. So you have two scenes indicating the passage of time which should be enough.

On the other hand you have two battles which would have taken place relatively simultaneously and a stop for Sex and kings land with Eurons ships or the last episode where they could have easily had a night time fire shot, Thoros dying, then a sunrise shot with the rock throwing giving them two nights on the rock instead of just ignoring it.

I think the effort to top itself is an issue when they yadda yaddaed Robs defeat of Jaimie it forced them to tell a story to the Audiece with the budget they have now they show but lose the subtlety of showing Tywin writing a letter to Walter Frey to set up the red wedding.

I think 15 minutes of extra run time could have cleaned up all of the issues.

[nfotiu]

I think the pacing of the first 6 seasons led to these problems. It would take another 10 seasons to cover what happened this year if they kept that same pacing.

I bet they wish they could go back and trim some of the fat from the first 6 years, and move some of this year's story back a season or two.

I'm still enjoying it, but the pace is jarring compared to past seasons.

[Iggy_12]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

The more you think about the last episode the more you realize how frickin bad the series has become. Nothing made sense. It's just distilled idiotic fan service at this point.

DUUUUUUDE, You are the worst just go away

Can we get back to posting theories and stuff man this thread is a drag analyzing every damn detail, you all can't be this miserable

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Breaking Bad suffered from similar issues as it's final season really wasn't that great relative to the rest of the series.

I didn't see BB that way - Season 5 episodes are usually ranked highly in lists of the best BB shows of all time - this list ranking all BB episodes is full of Season 5 in the top 20. Ozymandias is often cited as the best television show ever.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articl...anked.html?p=3

Years from now, with GOT, will people be talking about The Red Wedding, Battle of The Bastards, dragon battles, or, small council intrigues, endless marches, and camping?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by troutman

I didn't see BB that way - Season 5 episodes are usually ranked highly in lists of the best BB shows of all time - this list ranking all BB episodes is full of Season 5 in the top 20. Ozymandias is often cited as the best television show ever.

https://www.pastemagazine.com/articl...anked.html?p=3

Years from now, with GOT, will people be talking about The Red Wedding, Battle of The Bastards, dragon battles, or, small council intrigues, endless marches, and camping?

I get what EE is saying though, there is a real tonal departure in BB between seasons 4 and 5. While Season 5 may have some of the best individual episodes of the series, the overall story line of the season is disjointed and not as good as say Season 4, which is the best season of BB in my opinion.

Magnets?

I think the comparison is apt. Season 5 of BB had each episode as a wildly entertaining, tremendous episode individually, but combined are less than the sum of their parts. Season 4 is the Empire Strikes Back of the series with seasons 3 and 5 being the new hope and jedi.

This is how this season of GOT has played out. Each episode has been wildly entertaining except maybe episode 2 of the season. Individually, they are great episodes, but the larger storyline and the tone of the series has shifted dramatically which has reduced their impact.

[AltaGuy]

For me, what the inconsistent and too-short timelines have done is shrink the world. Part of the fun of this type of fantasy whether in book or tv form is the vastness of the creation. When timelines, especially travel time, get shorter, it makes it feel like we're in a backyard instead of a massive imaginary place. Lord of the Rings really set the standard for this, and for the most part maintained the feeling of it being a real, massive place. Timelines define the world, and any journey or adventure that a character went on previously where it seemed "epic" now seems diluted to me.

[Johnny Makarov]

How can they get them to their destinations within a timely manner with only 13 episodes left for seasons 7&8? I guess in a land of dragons, big ass wolves and baby demon assasins, they should have gave teleporting powers to one of them.

I wished HBO would end the series off with a 2.5/3 hour movie in the theatres. Take that illegal downloaders!

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by Johnny Makarov

How can they get them to their destinations within a timely manner with only 13 episodes left for seasons 7&8? I guess in a land of dragons, big ass wolves and baby demon assasins, they should have gave teleporting powers to one of them.

I wished HBO would end the series off with a 2.5/3 hour movie in the theatres. Take that illegal downloaders!

Yeah if only there was a way to download movies at home......

[troutman]

Carpool Karaoke: The Series — Sophie Turner & Maisie Williams Preview — Apple Music

https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=DjTp0lfcgEE

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Yeah if only there was a way to download movies at home......

Maybe for people who wants to watch Camcorder ones where you can hear people eating popcorn from your left speaker. hahaha

This movie would make $300mill easily.

[Matata]

I think the train robbery was the BB's "jumping the shark" moment, where the increasing craziness reached it's zenith and afterwards the craziness started to unravel the show.

GoT's "jumping the shark" moment might just be the Zombie Dragon.