[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[MrMike]

A lot of us go by the eye test, and Hamilton quietly put up the most goals (tied) by a defenceman and he did nothing but that. Not controlling the play. Not running the Powerplay. I never felt comfortable with him out there in our own end.

[CF84]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

I'm still not happy with the trade, but it's not worth losing sleep over

Hamilton is elite but doesn't get the respect that he should

Lindholm probably doesn't have another level. If he averages 50 points over the contract he'll outperform my expectations.

Ferland is a unicorn. There is nobody as tough, as disciplined, and as skilled as him in the league. And he's just breaking out. Yeah he was probably going to end up with a silly contract but I think if you give Ferland and Lindholm the same opportunities over the next couple seasons, Ferland will have a bigger impact.

Hanifin should end up elite but Hamilton already is, and it's not like Hanifin's contract is vastly better than Hamilton's during the window that is Johnny's contract imo, especially considering the expected level of performance from each player.

And then there's Fox too. Even if he wasn't going to sign, he still had value.

Maybe Hamilton and Ferland both don't care about winning and if so it's probably good that they were moved. But the Flames got worse on the ice now and for the next couple seasons.

Like a lot of people, I'm not counting on Johnny resigning when he's a UFA and this team will be nothing without him. Tkachuk and Monahan are good, but that's a recipe for another 10 years of mediocrity. I believe you need elite talent to win and that Johnny and Gio are the only two elite talents left here.

The only way the Flames benefit from the trade (at least in terms of talent) is if Hanifin becomes a strong #1 d-man, which isn't unlikely but is no guarantee.

I'm excited for you to be wrong about a lot of things in this post.

[VilleN]

I think Ferland is going to be an overpaid, inconsistent player. I would not feel comfortable giving him term and money. He’s the perfect player to sell high on IMO.

[Textcritic]

^
Am I the only one still hoping that the Flames sign Ferland as a UFA next summer?

[bigrangy]

Originally Posted by ComixZone

Not sure how you can say this as no games have been played.

If the Flames finish one point better than last year, then you are in fact incorrect in your assessment.

I fully expect them to finish with quite a few more points than last year. Do you truly believe the Flames will finish with less points than last year?

They dropped GG and added Neal so they better be 10+ points better just from that alone.

In this trade I believe the team got worse at hockey for next season. They got two guys with long term team control that apparently don't go to museums though so that's a positive. Whether or not either of them prove to be improvements over the guys they replaced is another question entirely.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

^
Am I the only one still hoping that the Flames sign Ferland as a UFA next summer?

Probably not the only one but not me.
Someone is going to overpay him.
Power forwards always get overpaid.

[CsInMyBlood]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

^
Am I the only one still hoping that the Flames sign Ferland as a UFA next summer?

Nope. I want him back. By far the worst part of this trade was losing him.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

^
Am I the only one still hoping that the Flames sign Ferland as a UFA next summer?

We do like former Hurricanes.

[MrMike]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

^
Am I the only one still hoping that the Flames sign Ferland as a UFA next summer?

Never thought of that, but I hope he has a great season and earns himself a good contract. He's worked hard to get to where he is today and I hope this is a kick in the butt with all the talent he has.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

We do like former Hurricanes.

I laughed. That was funny.

[MisterJoji]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

I'm still not happy with the trade, but it's not worth losing sleep over

Hamilton is elite but doesn't get the respect that he should

Lindholm probably doesn't have another level. If he averages 50 points over the contract he'll outperform my expectations.

Ferland is a unicorn. There is nobody as tough, as disciplined, and as skilled as him in the league. And he's just breaking out. Yeah he was probably going to end up with a silly contract but I think if you give Ferland and Lindholm the same opportunities over the next couple seasons, Ferland will have a bigger impact.

Hanifin should end up elite but Hamilton already is, and it's not like Hanifin's contract is vastly better than Hamilton's during the window that is Johnny's contract imo, especially considering the expected level of performance from each player.

And then there's Fox too. Even if he wasn't going to sign, he still had value.

Maybe Hamilton and Ferland both don't care about winning and if so it's probably good that they were moved. But the Flames got worse on the ice now and for the next couple seasons.

Like a lot of people, I'm not counting on Johnny resigning when he's a UFA and this team will be nothing without him. Tkachuk and Monahan are good, but that's a recipe for another 10 years of mediocrity. I believe you need elite talent to win and that Johnny and Gio are the only two elite talents left here.

The only way the Flames benefit from the trade (at least in terms of talent) is if Hanifin becomes a strong #1 d-man, which isn't unlikely but is no guarantee.

Ferland is probably underrated by most but you are certainly overrating him here. Nobody as tough/skilled/disciplined? You don’t have to look outside of this team to find a player that has many of the qualities you mentioned. Matthew Tkachuk.

Skilled? Absolutely. Better offense. 0.72 vs. 0.53 PPG. Also bear in mind that Tkachuk was used on the defensive shutdown line with worse linemates and still put up more offense.

Tough? About the same. He may not hit as much as Ferland but no one would mistake Tkachuk for a soft player. Both also had 2 fights last year. (Surprisingly the player with the most was Hamonic).

Disciplined? Yes, Tkachuk definitely toes that line resulting in a couple suspensions and more PIM’s but he is also elite at drawing penalties. He is #1 in the league at penalties drawn per game. I’d gladly trade a player who produces net positive PP’s vs. a player who just doesn’t take a lot of penalties.

I also disagree that Gaudreau is the only elite player. Give Tkachuk maybe another year or two and I highly wager he will be an elite winger as well.

[saXon]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Ferland is probably underrated by most but you are certainly overrating him here. Nobody as tough/skilled/disciplined? You don’t have to look outside of this team to find a player that has many of the qualities you mentioned. Matthew Tkachuk.

Skilled? Absolutely. Better offense. 0.72 vs. 0.53 PPG. Also bear in mind that Tkachuk was used on the defensive shutdown line with worse linemates and still put up more offense.

Tough? About the same. He may not hit as much as Ferland but no one would mistake Tkachuk for a soft player. Both also had 2 fights last year. (Surprisingly the player with the most was Hamonic).

Disciplined? Yes, Tkachuk definitely toes that line resulting in a couple suspensions and more PIM’s but he is also elite at drawing penalties. He is #1 in the league at penalties drawn per game. I’d gladly trade a player who produces net positive PP’s vs. a player who just doesn’t take a lot of penalties.

I also disagree that Gaudreau is the only elite player. Give Tkachuk maybe another year or two and I highly wager he will be an elite winger as well.

I'd say the kid is already an elite. What he's done since draft day is nothing short of that label. He plays an all around game, and is one of the best in front of the net, better than 85% of current NHL'ers attempting that position I'd wager. Also for a shift disturber, the fact that he consistently draws more penalties than takes them is aan elite skillset in its own and many times has changed the outcome of a game. All this and he can score.

It's just unfortunate that we haven't seen any of this outside Gulutzan hockey.

[ramil600]

Originally Posted by DallasFlamesFan

Anyone on here able to recommend a couple of Hurricane games from last year that are worth watching that showcase Hanifin and Lindholm?

I really recommend Canes - Habs game from January 2018 for Hanifin; he was plus 5, had three assists, and was one of the stars of the game. I also noticed how all defencemen were used evenly by Peters, Hanifin despite of being on the third pairing had 20 mins ice time. Later on he also went to play on the All-Stars squad, where you can watch at his skills.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina

Probably not the only one but not me.
Someone is going to overpay him.
Power forwards always get overpaid.

I don't think the Blues overpaid for Patrick Maroon. Granted that is a unique case.

[GullFoss]

Originally Posted by stemit14

The coaches had to go because of how rigid they were with line ups and power plays. And because it seems they had lost the room. I’ve heard that Peters system is not that different but he’s more of a tough coach who demands more of everyone.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Ohh I dunno. I think the systems are pretty different. Gully only cared about possession. Peters cares about that too, but is going to have the flames playing a faster game (quicker transitions), with a harder forecheck.

[stemit14]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Ohh I dunno. I think the systems are pretty different. Gully only cared about possession. Peters cares about that too, but is going to have the flames playing a faster game (quicker transitions), with a harder forecheck.

I’m sure there will be differences and that’s good... especially if it means a faster transition game. But I also heard on 960 the other day that the jump from GG to Peters is not as drastic as the jump from Hartley to GG. From what I’ve heard about Peters system it should be just what this team needs (along with the culture change).


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

The only reason the price felt steep initially was when the rumor broke we had a discussion for a couple of days thinking that Dougie alone could return Hanifin and Lindholm. In reality Dougie did not have the value of 2 former top 5 picks (especially with the age/ceiling of Hanifin)

I liked the deal from day 1 and grew to love it over the summer. Now that the Flames have both players locked up for 6 years at less than $5M per each it is even better.

For the Canes the only certainty they got was Dougie for 3 years. Ferland is in his last year and Fox may just wait it out to go ufa.

I've said this before but I never think a deal is likely until it makes me uncomfortable as a fan.

The Hanifin + Lindholm for Hamilton didn't make me uncomfortable. Adding Ferland seemed right, and then the Fox add made me uncomfortable so in the end the final deal made sense.

I'm just glad they stepped away from Philadelphia. Seems like the same conversation was going on there with the Flames likely trying to secure a defenseman to add to Symmonds.

Much happier with Carolina pieces.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm just glad they stepped away from Philadelphia. Seems like the same conversation was going on there with the Flames likely trying to secure a defenseman to add to Symmonds.

If that's the case, the Flames were probably asking for Provorov, the Flyers countered with Sanheim, and that was that.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by bigrangy

I'm still not happy with the trade, but it's not worth losing sleep over

Hamilton is elite but doesn't get the respect that he should

Lindholm probably doesn't have another level. If he averages 50 points over the contract he'll outperform my expectations.

Ferland is a unicorn. There is nobody as tough, as disciplined, and as skilled as him in the league. And he's just breaking out. Yeah he was probably going to end up with a silly contract but I think if you give Ferland and Lindholm the same opportunities over the next couple seasons, Ferland will have a bigger impact.

Hanifin should end up elite but Hamilton already is, and it's not like Hanifin's contract is vastly better than Hamilton's during the window that is Johnny's contract imo, especially considering the expected level of performance from each player.

And then there's Fox too. Even if he wasn't going to sign, he still had value.

Maybe Hamilton and Ferland both don't care about winning and if so it's probably good that they were moved. But the Flames got worse on the ice now and for the next couple seasons.

Like a lot of people, I'm not counting on Johnny resigning when he's a UFA and this team will be nothing without him. Tkachuk and Monahan are good, but that's a recipe for another 10 years of mediocrity. I believe you need elite talent to win and that Johnny and Gio are the only two elite talents left here.

The only way the Flames benefit from the trade (at least in terms of talent) is if Hanifin becomes a strong #1 d-man, which isn't unlikely but is no guarantee.

1. I am not sure how you manage to conclude on the one hand that 26-year-old Micheal Ferland is on the verge of breaking out, while 23-year-old Elias Lindholm "probably doesn't have another level."
2. It is incredibly shortsighted to set one's expectations to a window that ends with Gaudreau's current contract, and moreover to claim that "this team will be nothing without him." Tkachuk and Hanifin are both trending to be elite-level players, Sean Monahan is already one of the best young centres in the entire NHL, and Lindholm is young enough and skilled enough that he could also yet enter that conversation. It is interesting to note that while the Flames maintained a respectable 6-3-1 record while Gaudreau was shelved in late 2016 for ten games, the team utterly crumbled to the tune of 2-5-0 when Monahan was shut down this past season. Gaudreau is a terrific player, but I think a strong case can be made that Monahan might be the most important forward on the team.
3. I don't understand the counter argument that portrays Adam Fox's inclusion in this trade as a throw-in. Of course he has value, but I suspect it is being badly overinflated by some fans. What value do you imagine that Fox has on his own?
4. I don't believe this trade made the Flames worse. I think it changed the complexion of their defense, while boosting the potency of the scoring group. I continue to view Lindholm as a more useful player than Ferland.
5. I personally think that there is a very good chance Gaudreau re-signs in Calgary. He participates every summer in the Stampede Parade, and is one of the few players (the only player?) to make the trip in from out of town to do so. He is frequently used by the team to recruit free agents, and is often reported as one of the first to welcome new players to the team. That sounds like an invested player. Not one that is counting the days before he can fly the coop as a UFA.

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

1. I am not sure how you manage to conclude on the one hand that 26-year-old Micheal Ferland is on the verge of breaking out, while 23-year-old Elias Lindholm "probably doesn't have another level."
2. It is incredibly shortsighted to set one's expectations to a window that ends with Gaudreau's current contract, and moreover to claim that "this team will be nothing without him." Tkachuk and Hanifin are both trending to be elite-level players, Sean Monahan is already one of the best young centres in the entire NHL, and Lindholm is young enough and skilled enough that he could also yet enter that conversation. It is interesting to note that while the Flames maintained a respectable 6-3-1 record while Gaudreau was shelved in late 2016 for ten games, the team utterly crumbled to the tune of 2-5-0 when Monahan was shut down this past season. Gaudreau is a terrific player, but I think a strong case can be made that Monahan might be the most important forward on the team.
3. I don't understand the counter argument that portrays Adam Fox's inclusion in this trade as a throw-in. Of course he has value, but I suspect it is being badly overinflated by some fans. What value do you imagine that Fox has on his own?
4. I don't believe this trade made the Flames worse. I think it changed the complexion of their defense, while boosting the potency of the scoring group. I continue to view Lindholm as a more useful player than Ferland.
5. I personally think that there is a very good chance Gaudreau re-signs in Calgary. He participates every summer in the Stampede Parade, and is one of the few players (the only player?) to make the trip in from out of town to do so. He is frequently used by the team to recruit free agents, and is often reported as one of the first to welcome new players to the team. That sounds like an invested player. Not one that is counting the days before he can fly the coop as a UFA.

I couldn't have said it better myself. I think that Fox was the reason Carolina signed this deal, considering that Ferland is a UFA in one year with a high probability of not re-signing with the team. In a year, Hamilton + a decent prospect (if he signs) looks like a better return for two young top five picks than just Hamilton.