2021 NFL off season thread

[GirlySports]

The line is McNabb. If McNabb gets in first, Rivers will be a shoe-in.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Pro Bowls should never count, no offense to the average fan but....yeah. I definitely think it's close for Rivers, and I won't care all that much if he gets in. I just don't think I'd make him a HOFer if it were my call. But with that said I could be persuaded he deserves it. On first glance though, don't see it. He is a first ballot lock in the child producing HOF though.

I don't want to overstate it, but Pro Bowls should count for more than nothing. It's a reflection of how you're viewed by players and coaches. It's all part of the bigger story for a player's career. Eight times says something.

The QB's with more:
Brady 14
Manning 14
Brees 13
Favre 11
Unitas 10
Moon 9
Rodgers 9
Tarkenton 9
Van Brocklin 9
Elway 9
Marino 9

Obviously knock on Rivers is no Super Bowl. Never even played in the game. Other HOF QB's without a ring include Marino, Moon, Kelly, Fouts, Tarkenton.

The best QB's without a Super Bowl not in the HOF would maybe Ken Anderson or Testaverde. I'd put Rivers at a significant notch better than those two.

[CaptainCrunch]

Strange diversion, but I loved Testaverde, especially when they found out he was color blind way into his career.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't want to overstate it, but Pro Bowls should count for more than nothing. It's a reflection of how you're viewed by players and coaches. It's all part of the bigger story for a player's career. Eight times says something.

The QB's with more:
Brady 14
Manning 14
Brees 13
Favre 11
Unitas 10
Moon 9
Rodgers 9
Tarkenton 9
Van Brocklin 9
Elway 9
Marino 9

Obviously knock on Rivers is no Super Bowl. Never even played in the game. Other HOF QB's without a ring include Marino, Moon, Kelly, Fouts, Tarkenton.

The best QB's without a Super Bowl not in the HOF would maybe Ken Anderson or Testaverde. I'd put Rivers at a significant notch better than those two.

Yeah but the fans also decide and lets face it then it becomes about the most engaged fanbase instead of the most deserving (like Frank Clark as a Pro Bowler this year with...6 sacks and 21 tackles). Also, especially now, the Pro Bowl is an event players like to skip or get "injured", hence how we ended up with Pro Bowler Mitch Trubisky. All Pro is the standard and should be worth significantly more than a Pro Bowl selection. Like I would think more of Rivers chances with zero Pro Bowls and one first team All Pro selection.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Yeah but the fans also decide and lets face it then it becomes about the most engaged fanbase instead of the most deserving (like Frank Clark as a Pro Bowler this year with...6 sacks and 21 tackles). Also, especially now, the Pro Bowl is an event players like to skip or get "injured", hence how we ended up with Pro Bowler Mitch Trubisky. All Pro is the standard and should be worth significantly more than a Pro Bowl selection. Like I would think more of Rivers chances with zero Pro Bowls and one first team All Pro selection.

Trubisky has been voted to one pro Bowl as an injury replacement, Rivers has been to 8.

Maybe you shouldn't look at it as a reason so much as correlation. Great players get voted to multiple Pro bowls, I don't see how to argue that. Fans, players and coaches do know something about the sport.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Obviously knock on Rivers is no Super Bowl. Never even played in the game. Other HOF QB's without a ring include Marino, Moon, Kelly, Fouts, Tarkenton.

But again let's also consider the era's in which these guys played.

Marino and Fouts throwing for 4500 to 5000 yards when the number of passing yards throughout the league was much less than it is today. Jim Kelly got his team to 4 straight Super Bowls. Fran Tarkenton again is from a completely different era and did get to the Superbowl.

Warren Moon you could argue is borderline though, hard to say how much credit he get's for his CFL stats. Don't discount that he was also a bit of a trail blazer for African American QB's too. Even 20 years ago there was the racist old boys club who staunchly believed that only good ol Mr White could play the position. Remember Rush Limbaugh on ESPN Countdown crowing about McNabb only being famous because the league is desparate for a star QB who's not white. It's a major reason why he had to come to Canada was because at that time no one in the NFL thought he could be a QB. So I think that should carry some weight because breaking that type of barrier to me is Fame worthy.

[Sainters7]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I really want to see Stafford getting a chance somewhere else. If anyone deserves a change in scenary its him.

Been lots of talk in New Orleans of him possibly being a Saint next year, if Brees does in fact retire as expected, and they can't re-up Winston. I'd be interested to see that.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

But again let's also consider the era's in which these guys played.

Marino and Fouts throwing for 4500 to 5000 yards when the number of passing yards throughout the league was much less than it is today. Jim Kelly got his team to 4 straight Super Bowls. Fran Tarkenton again is from a completely different era and did get to the Superbowl.

Warren Moon you could argue is borderline though, hard to say how much credit he get's for his CFL stats. Don't discount that he was also a bit of a trail blazer for African American QB's too. Even 20 years ago there was the racist old boys club who staunchly believed that only good ol Mr White could play the position. Remember Rush Limbaugh on ESPN Countdown crowing about McNabb only being famous because the league is desparate for a star QB who's not white. It's a major reason why he had to come to Canada was because at that time no one in the NFL thought he could be a QB. So I think that should carry some weight because breaking that type of barrier to me is Fame worthy.

Yeah I agree, I would put Rivers behind those guys for sure with Fouts maybe the closest. He was considered a bit of a product of his system, which may not be fair. IIRC he was a first ballot guy. Guys like Kelly and Aikman are also interesting. They won a lot but were on very good teams.

IMO Rivers is better than the QB's closest to him who are not in.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Trubisky has been voted to one pro Bowl as an injury replacement, Rivers has been to 8.

Maybe you shouldn't look at it as a reason so much as correlation. Great players get voted to multiple Pro bowls, I don't see how to argue that. Fans, players and coaches do know something about the sport.

I'm saying Pro Bowls don't matter anywhere near as much as All Pros. 8 Pro Bowls is fine, but again, the Hall of Very Good and the Hall of Fame are two different things. McNabb made 6 Pro Bowls and I would guess if you polled NFL fans he'd be under 10% for the HOF. This Football Outsiders article isn't dedicated exclusive to Rivers in the last two minutes of the game, but it goes through his experiences and he is pretty much a HOFer at not winning in those situations. Play in the clutch is crucial in how we evaluate players, and Rivers is pretty bad in the clutch.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/qu...rd-quick-reads

[Jason14h]

It isn't just no Superbowl though. You can be great and have bad luck and not win a Superbowl

He was 5-7 lifetime in the playoffs.

5 playoff wins in 17 years.

A HOF QB is able to win more then 5 playoff games over a 17 year career.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

I'm saying Pro Bowls don't matter anywhere near as much as All Pros. 8 Pro Bowls is fine, but again, the Hall of Very Good and the Hall of Fame are two different things. McNabb made 6 Pro Bowls and I would guess if you polled NFL fans he'd be under 10% for the HOF. This Football Outsiders article isn't dedicated exclusive to Rivers in the last two minutes of the game, but it goes through his experiences and he is pretty much a HOFer at not winning in those situations. Play in the clutch is crucial in how we evaluate players, and Rivers is pretty bad in the clutch.

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/qu...rd-quick-reads

I'm not saying Pro Bowl is anywhere near as meaningful as All Pro. There is a lot that goes into HOF consideration. Longevity, position, statistics, winning, peak performance. It's all part of it.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Yeah no doubt, but we all know all factors are not weighted equally. As EE points out Eli is going to maybe get in on the backs of those Super Bowl wins. If he has zero there wouldn't even be a discussion for him. If I was to personally rank what matters for HOF, Pro Bowl would just be near the bottom, not because it means nothing per se, but the other factors are more important.

[dirk diggler]

In rivers defense, very rarely did he have a great defense like Eli did for those Giant wins. His best chance was early in his career when they had the Pats beat but Marlon Mcree with a huge bonehead play gave the game away. I also went to the Jets/Chargers game in 2009, the Chargers kicker might have missed one kick all year and then he misses 3 or 4 that game. I dont believe it is all on Rivers. Eli or Big Ben on the Chargers for their whole career likely do not win a super bowl either.

[browna]

I think he gets in, maybe not first ballott depending on who else is there. But 5th in NFL passing yards and TDs, and over 240 consecutive starts, nevermind a clean cut, controversy free career, should be enough.

If he played in 2/3 of the NFL cities for this many years he'd be a first ballot, but he was in the forgotten land of San Diego.

[browna]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

The only way this makes any sense is if they are looking for an example of red flags to look for with the OC's they are seriously considering.

Casting a wide net is one way to put it. Wilson is a stubborn guy from most accounts when it comes to how he think the offense should be run (and that he should be running it) and the power he should have. Especially after the team relented and gave Wilson more control to start the season and they started 5-0 (and quickly faded when Wilson didn't change up his looks and schemes and teams caught up to the tape). I am sure candidates have checked in with Schottenhemier to find out that dynamic.

Not many former head coaches want to be held hostage in their OC position by the QB, nor do up and comers looking to make a further name for themselves, want to get walked all over for a couple seasons.

A guy like Gase may be open to those working conditions, because he's already got 2 recent strikes on him with Miami and then the Jets, so anything tied to a chance of success that may raise his profile, even if it means he is a managing figurehead for Wilson, he'll take that.

[rubecube]

Your Wilson hate blows my mind. Seahawks would be a perennial bottom-feeder without him.

[browna]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Your Wilson hate blows my mind. Seahawks would be a perennial bottom-feeder without him.

Not hate. He just needs to stay in his lane as far as trusting the system and coaches a bit more, as he seems to want to take his own path these past few years, which may work short term but becoming uncoachable eventually catches up to the player and the team. If he had no faith in Schottenhemier, ok, but he has to be open to the new guy and his plans, is all I'm saying.

He's an instinctive, smart QB and great athlete and the Seahawks wouldn't be anywhere without his skills. He always bristled at the "game manager" tag he was given earlier in his career but that's because the coaches planned the offense around his strengths which is why they went to 2 SBs in a row (helped he was making low $) and also now seems to want to prove there past few years that he can do it all and that his MVP snubs over the years are misguided.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

The line is McNabb. If McNabb gets in first, Rivers will be a shoe-in.

McNabb will not get into the HOF. He was an average QB that played for Andy Reid who runs the most QB friendly offense in the history of the NFL. He threw for over 30 TD's just once and never eclipsed 4000 yards passing in any season. He's the very definition of long tenured, average starting NFL QB.

[transplant99]

To the Rivers thing...ESPN asked 9 of their writers if he should get in to the HOF

8 were definite yes 1 waffled but thought yes.

The selection committee is made up largely of media guys.

https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/...re-quarterback

[devo22]

it's pretty simple for me: if Eli gets in, Rivers does too. If it was up to me, Eli is not a HoFer - but we all know he'll get in. In terms of pure QB play, it's definitely Rivers > Eli for me, but the SB wins will work in Elis favour. So in my mind, they either both get in or they both don't.