Women's professional hockey - will it ever work?

[Matata]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I think that women's sports work better in situations where they can be presented as equal to but different than the men. Where you can show them on the same broadcast and present them at the same level. Figure Skating, tennis, UFC, these have the advantage of promoting female athletes due to their format.

Those 3 sports also leaned heavily on highly marketable star athletes to get to where they are today. You can't just conjure a Rhonda Rousey or Serena Williams out of thin air. Women's MMA completely changed once Rhonda started seeing 7 figure paydays, the quality of female fighters and fights has skyrocketed since then.

[The Yen Man]

Sports is a luxury, not a right. If there's no money to be made, why does the NHL have an obligation to support it?

If it doesn't work, it doesn't work. And women's professional hockey, at it's current state, hasn't worked out. Maybe someone creative can make a run of it and turn it into a successful product. But again, that's not the responsibility of the NHL if they don't think they could do it.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I think that women's sports work better in situations where they can be presented as equal to but different than the men. Where you can show them on the same broadcast and present them at the same level. Figure Skating, tennis, UFC, these have the advantage of promoting female athletes due to their format.

In the case of Tennis the Women’s game is actually a superior product. More break points longer rally’s and more momentum swings.

The Men’s service game being so powerful makes the sport less good.

[CroFlames]

Everyone should just ask themselves honestly if they are willing to attend games and spend thousands of dollars doing so. That’s with the knowledge there is tier one junior and multiple tier two junior teams in and around the city. Also CIS teams.

I wish it could work, but it just can’t.

[Deegee]

Originally Posted by Vansmack

In all honesty, you can go watch a Heritage League games for free. For a beer league, the quality of hockey is quite good

Please support the Heritage League and pay the admission price. It's really good value for money. Unless you are not talking about the Jr B league.

Speaking of Jr B, until the ladies can draw more than a Junior B game I'm not sure a livable wage can be had.

Please don't confuse this with me not hoping they find a way to be successful.

Right now their plan essentially reads "the NHL needs to subsidize us because we want more money" and nothing else.


That reeks of entitlement.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

Bit of a wacky idea, but I think one way it could be more marketable is if it as co-ed with NHL legends. A ton of hurdles to make it work, but I could imagine a 4-8 team limited date travelling roadshow league. I would imagine it can be hard for a lot of NHL alumni to find good beer leagues that scratch their competitive itch without being full of Jr B d-bags going nuts on them.

Trying not to be offensive here, but how would this not be a circus sideshow? It doesn't really matter what you consider NHL alumni, every single one of them would need to significantly let up before they get to the women's level. You realize that Canada's national team plays against 15 year old boys teams to train, right? I think this would be far more patronizing then you realize.

I think it sucks for the NHL to have this fall to them. If society wants to watch the best women play hockey against one other, that's obviously awesome, but society needs to put its money where its mouth is, not a private business.

[SilverKast]

I don't know that it will ever work until the way we look at it changes and we become willing to support it.

Currently I look at it the same way I look at men's hockey - so my dollar goes to wherever the best product is, which is men's hockey hands down. If we try to put them both on equal footing for the entertainment dollar then women's hockey is going to lose every single time.

I don't know the right answer, someone mentioned maybe there needs to be a larger female audience - I've never considered that, and I'm assuming the current sporting audience is male dominated. How do you expand your target market then if you're not going to get the existing market to give up any of their share?

I'm all for equal opportunity and pay, but if there's no market there to support a pro league then that's just too bad. It's easy to point at the major pro leagues and crazy salaries involved but those have huge markets with die hard followers in a lot of instances - just look north to the no-goods who are continually supported lol.

[DiracSpike]

If people are looking to take their daughters to see high level female sports they can look no further than the mutitude of sports teams fielded by U of C, MRU, and SAIT. These teams are consistently under-supported given the popularity of some of the sports they play like hockey basketball and volleyball even though the tickets are dirt cheap. I can't think of any better role model than high level athletes (and they are high level, men's and women's side for a lot of sports like mens basketball and women's hockey this is the highest level around for western canada) who are also full time post secondary students preparing for a post-sports career just like 99.99% of the population.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GGG

In the case of Tennis the Women’s game is actually a superior product. More break points longer rally’s and more momentum swings.

The Men’s service game being so powerful makes the sport less good.

Golf too, to an extent. I appreciate the skill but dislike "320 yard drive, pitch onto the green" golf. It also limits what places can host a PGA tourney (as in no nice looking Alberta courses).

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Itse

If you think of WNBA as part of the NBA marketing, $10M per year is a lot, but it isn't THAT much. It's also a unique kind of marketing that probably draws in people they otherwise don't reach. Best use of money? Unlikely, but it wouldn't surprise me if the NBA is okay with the way things are.

I don't see women's hockey being commercially viable as a gate driven league, but I don't think it's impossible that hockey marketing + sports brands wanting to sell girls expensive hockey gear could support a small league. Not right now, but maybe at some point in time.

Big maybe though.

You'd probably have to brand the women's teams the same as the NHL teams, like they do in Europe. In Helsinki HIFK just started their own women's team with the same name and logo. No off-brand lower-tier naming like Inferno, the womens team is HIFK just like the men's team. This is also how they name the junior teams, so you can literally play for just one team all your life.

I always felt that makes a lot of marketing sense.

I don't know very much about the NBA/WNBA but if the WNBA loses $10 million per year which comes out of the NBA's pocket who cares? From what I have seen online the NBA generated $8 billion in revenue last year and they have a revenue sharing pool where each team received $110 million. Why would anyone be concerned about a $10 million loss? The goodwill generated by having a women's league and the support for girls sports, equality and esteem is much more valuable than a relatively measly loss.

[CaptainCrunch]

The league has been around for 20 some odd years and loses an average of 10 million a year, last year that increased to 12 million.


I get what you're saying, and it the NBA is ok with throwing nearly a quarter billion dollars into a hobo barrel that's find.



I doubt the NHL is looking at the WNBA example and saying, we should do that.



I don't see much in the terms of goodwill, it doesn't translate into bums in the seat. And equality in sports doesn't mean funding a pro league that isn't supported, nor is esteem. The NHL would probably do more for woman's sports and self esteem and all of that stuff with scholarships for Girls hockey, then a league that nobody but friends and family goes to see.


There's not a pro league for actual for real woman's tackle football (Not the Legends league) and there's not a shortage of girls playing that sport.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

Everyone should just ask themselves honestly if they are willing to attend games and spend thousands of dollars doing so. That’s with the knowledge there is tier one junior and multiple tier two junior teams in and around the city. Also CIS teams.

I wish it could work, but it just can’t.

Exactly. As much as I think it would be a great thing, I'm not going to go

[FireGilbert]

The NHL should do something even if it means taking a loss for a few years. They are missing out potential hard core supporters from half of society. Yeah it’s a big risk but they need to try something.

The teams need to be linked to NHL teams to have any success. No one cares about the Inferno but call them the Calgary Flames, put them in the same jerseys, give them a part of the marketing power, and play a few games as double headers before NHL exhibitions and all of a sudden it has legitimacy. You’d get young girls who are maybe casual fans really into the game and they would also gain instant support from die hard Flames fans both male and female.

AFLW is the model to follow. It went from playing one exhibition game per year to 16 teams with 50k crowds in 3 years.

[GirlySports]

Nobody will support a hockey league without hitting, men or women.

I've seen AFLW. It is just as rough.

[Moneyhands23]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

Nobody will support a hockey league without hitting, men or women.

I've seen AFLW. It is just as rough.

Exactly! Make it the same game. Ppl like the hard hitting rough play. Its so weird and old school thinking to not let them hit.

A lot of female Pro players want hitting in the game!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

The NHL should do something even if it means taking a loss for a few years. They are missing out potential hard core supporters from half of society. Yeah it’s a big risk but they need to try something.

The teams need to be linked to NHL teams to have any success. No one cares about the Inferno but call them the Calgary Flames, put them in the same jerseys, give them a part of the marketing power, and play a few games as double headers before NHL exhibitions and all of a sudden it has legitimacy. You’d get young girls who are maybe casual fans really into the game and they would also gain instant support from die hard Flames fans both male and female.

AFLW is the model to follow. It went from playing one exhibition game per year to 16 teams with 50k crowds in 3 years.

Those hardcore supporters haven't come out in enough numbers to show an interest in year by year support.


There needs to be a business model and a track record of revenue for the NHL to even look at investing, there's not.


At the same time, I'm pretty sure that the moment that the woman formed a players union they poison pilled themselves in terms of any investment.

[Weitz]

I feel bad for the people who spend money on the NHL. I’d probably feel better for those who would spend it on a lessor league.

I’d never spend my own money on either though. Love the free tickets though.

[oldschoolcalgary]

the attendance for women's hockey league is pretty easy to find... and its not good.

CWHL:
Boston 215
Toronto 179
Brampton 166
Alberta 107
Burlington 97

NWHL:
Minnesota 1,200
Buffalo 1,101
Riveters 721
Boston 706
Connecticut 423

Honest question: If the NHL subsidized a WNHL, would any one here be more likely to go to a game than they were previously? I mean the Flames backed the Inferno, and their attendance didn't spike at all.

As for goodwill, not sure how that's quantified? Considering the average attendance of all the teams combined would not even fill the lower bowl of the dome, how much good will would you be buying?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by FireGilbert

The NHL should do something even if it means taking a loss for a few years. They are missing out potential hard core supporters from half of society. Yeah it’s a big risk but they need to try something.

The teams need to be linked to NHL teams to have any success. No one cares about the Inferno but call them the Calgary Flames, put them in the same jerseys, give them a part of the marketing power, and play a few games as double headers before NHL exhibitions and all of a sudden it has legitimacy. You’d get young girls who are maybe casual fans really into the game and they would also gain instant support from die hard Flames fans both male and female.

AFLW is the model to follow. It went from playing one exhibition game per year to 16 teams with 50k crowds in 3 years.

Do women not like Men's sports? Are they not allowed? Is it contractually obligated?

[Flamenspiel]

nm