Practice notes Dec 13

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I will never cease to be amazed at how people are so enamoured with Andrew Mangiapane and are so critical of Sam Bennett when they've both turned out to be useful players to about the same degree.

At a certain point, a player's draft pedigree stops mattering.

One player has earned his icetime and makes good plays. It is his first fulltime NHL season and he is progressing. The other player is known for taking stupid penalties, something he really hasn't learned to fix in years and his offensive numbers have basically stagnated.

But yes, lets just keep looking at Bennett's age and keep hoping that he will put it all together...

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Wanna know who else is a pretty good Pk player? Sam Bennett.

I dont know, even Jankowski is looking like a new man out there. Whole team is loose and full of new coach juice.

Maybe I could word that better, nah.

Bennett may be streaky as hell but he was also a player early on who was not a problem aside from the penalties. And even then hes been the victim of more than anyone else's fair share of shady calls.

What in the world are you basing this on?

He has played an average of 10 seconds a game SH this season.

31 seconds a game for his career.

Nick Grossman, Jyrki Jokipakka, and Tanner Glass (among many others) played more SH TOIPG for this team over Sams time as a Flame.

No, Sam Bennett is not a good PKer. At least in the eyes of multiple coaching staffs since coming to the NHL.

PKers need to be very cerebral on the ice and be able to anticipate things...not attributes that Sam Bennett has ever been strong at in his career.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

Bennett has played for 4 coaches now and none of them could get him to play center.

Um, what? Factually wrong.

Hartley played him at center. He was as effective there as he was on Backlund's wing. His only cold stretch as a rookie, that kept him from that 45-50+ pt range, was on Markus Granlund's left wing because Granlund had been called up to sink or swim (he sank and was traded).

Gulutzan made the playoffs the year Bennett played center despite goaltending woes and a lack of winger depth or defensemen. Most would argue Bennett's line was our best 5v5 in those playoffs. Versteeg and Chiasson were hardly our best 5v5 wingers on a team with Gaudreau, Tkachuk, Ferland, and Frolik. Bennett's underlying numbers cratered with Troy Brouwer on his wing, but the stats show Monahan was equally cratered in that identical scenario.

Gulutzan missed the playoffs, and hard the year Bennett played primarily wing. And when Bennett did find himself down the middle, it was flanked by guys like Curtis Lazar. So of course it was no surprise that his best offensive stretch came with Jankowski - that has almost zilch to do with position and everything to do with how profoundly better Janko was than the other bottom sixers that year, with Versteeg out, Jagr missing camp and then eventually out, and the rest of the crew consisting of AHLers.

Peters never tried Bennett at center outside of like one period over 1.5 seasons. And his usage of centers as exclusive wingers (Eric Staal, Elias Lindholm) was always a percieved inefficiency with respect to those non-center players. Lindholm has already spent more time at center in the seven games since Peters' departure as he did in the 100-ish prior.

Bennett has not played for a fourth coach yet.

I get that Bennett can be guilty of getting caught on the wrong side of the threshold with respect to playing on the edge - and yet when the premature whistles get put away it's this aspect that helps makes him effective in tight checking playoff games. But outside of penalties the flack this guy gets by people who just look at point totals saddens me. He's consistently been one of the best monute for minute primary assist producers 5v5 on this team virtually his whole career. Outside of one year where his shooting percentages fell off the map he's been one of the better minute for minute goal scorers 5v5 on this team. No, he hasn't been elite in either of those categories, but his numbers in those areas would typically pass for 2nd line territory on most teams, and he was not playing with 2nd liners.

Where has the production lacked, then? Two areas: secondary assists and icetime. Both areas outside of his control. He was fixed at 3LW behind Gaudreau and Tkachuk or 3C behind Monahan and Backlund so he wasn't going to get the icetime to build up bigger totals. And 2nd assists are a volatile stat that tends to be a reflection of linemate quality and sheer luck.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by transplant99

What in the world are you basing this on?

He has played an average of 10 seconds a game SH this season.

31 seconds a game for his career.

Nick Grossman, Jyrki Jokipakka, and Tanner Glass (among many others) played more SH TOIPG for this team over Sams time as a Flame.

No, Sam Bennett is not a good PKer. At least in the eyes of multiple coaching staffs since coming to the NHL.

PKers need to be very cerebral on the ice and be able to anticipate things...not attributes that Sam Bennett has ever been strong at in his career.

You can't evaluate someone's PK performance on an absence of PK time, that is asinine. Especially someone who typically gets powerplay time as it's rare for players to be used on both special teams (typically only Backlund and Lindholm are typically used in both, and even Backlund has seen his PP time diminish). Coaches like to get everyone involved in special teams.

You must evaluate someone's PK performance on their PK performance. And when Bennett has been used as a PKer (2016-17), he was an excellent PKer despite your narrative about anticipation and cerebral play (almost as if it's a madeup narrative).

[Itse]

If Sam Bennett is one of our best 5v5 scorers per minute, why has he never been used like one by his coaches?

You know, for example giving him more minutes when the team needs a goal?

[keenan87]

Originally Posted by Itse

If Sam Bennett is one of our best 5v5 scorers per minute, why has he never been used like one by his coaches?

You know, for example giving him more minutes when the team needs a goal?

It is because every coach apparently hates Bennett or doesn't know how to really unleash the potential lol

[transplant99]

"He is a great PKer, but his awesome PP contributions during his less than two minutes of time per game where he has collected ONE point prevents him from doing so".


OK then....speaking of "made up" narratives.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by keenan87

One player has earned his icetime and makes good plays. It is his first fulltime NHL season and he is progressing. The other player is known for taking stupid penalties, something he really hasn't learned to fix in years and his offensive numbers have basically stagnated.

But yes, lets just keep looking at Bennett's age and keep hoping that he will put it all together...

Did you even read the post you quoted?

[Monahammer]

I think now is the time to dangle Bennett in a trade. Gms will remember draft position, playoff success and the fact he was playing for a brutal coach and perhaps value him at a high (comparatively to his value the last couple of seasons...)

I was of the opinion that we could use another top 6 forward but dube has seemingly filled the void very well. I am interested in trying to pry someone like Seth Jones out of columbus. Bennett+Valimaki may entice jarmo..

[Moneyhands23]

Jeff Ward has had a positive effect on a lot of our players since taking over.

Maybe we can all get on board with him giving Bennett what he needs to succeed. Then we can see what's what? 🤗

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Moneyhands23

Jeff Ward

Geoff.

[Rando]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

I will never cease to be amazed at how people are so enamoured with Andrew Mangiapane and are so critical of Sam Bennett when they've both turned out to be useful players to about the same degree.

At a certain point, a player's draft pedigree stops mattering.

To be honest it's pretty simple. Mangiapane has continued to improve with each season, moving up the organizational depth chart each year. Sam Bennett has stagnated for four seasons now.

There is still upside win Mangiapane, he's looking like a compliment piece on a 2nd/3rd line. Bennett is what he is at this point. 10+ goal, 30 point third line player.

[Kovaz]

Mangiapane's currently on pace for 25 points. In a "breakout" season where he's played 70% of his ice time in the top 6. Meanwhile Bennett "is what he is" as a 30 point bottom 6 guy. Every time Bennett goes cold for a couple of games the "trade Bennett he's a bum" narrative goes crazy on here, meanwhile Mangiapane's last 8 games he has 1 point and -2 playing on the top line - not a peep.

Bennett may have stagnated, but he stagnated at a higher level than Mangiapane has ever reached, even from a pure offense standpoint. And Bennett is younger than Mangiapane, and brings a hell of a lot more beyond points.

[Rando]

Bennett is two months younger than Mangiapane...

[Kovaz]

Originally Posted by Rando

Bennett is two months younger than Mangiapane...

So they should be held to roughly the same standard, age-wise. If Mangiapane is still a young player with potential to improve, then so is Bennett.

[dissentowner]

You would think after seeing how Backlund developed people would have a bit more patience with Bennett. At worst he is a hard checking player that can chip in some points while bringing it in big games. At best he still had a lot of potential to be a top 6 mainstay.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Itse

If Sam Bennett is one of our best 5v5 scorers per minute, why has he never been used like one by his coaches?

You know, for example giving him more minutes when the team needs a goal?

Because Bennett takes stupid penalties 180 feet from his net like clockwork when he's put in high stakes situations.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Great insight. Let’s break it down. 4 coaches, you say?

He was good as a rookie under Hartley as a wing with a regular shift with Backlund and Frolik. That was the end of his top 6 deployment, as Gulutzan slotted Tkachuk in there straight away.
Gulutzan was a bad coach, who should feel bad, and bounced him around with many bad linemates.
Peters - well, he is not on too many pedestals these days. Bennett is the best forward in the playoffs, and he rewards him with pretty much nothing.

Who is the fourth coach he has played for again?

Bennett’s development stalled after Hartley and that coincides quite well with deployment.

And have any players this year done better under Ward than Peters?

Why the love of crapping on Bennett? He hasn’t had stable quality linemates since his rookie season.

Let the new coach do his job

Sorry, 3 coaches and is now on his 4th. And he has yet to show that he deserves more ice time or the understanding of how to play center. I know everyone wants him to be who they thought was drafted but 5 years in to his career he hasn't shown the improvement. Accept the fact he is a 4th line or lower 3rd line winger and that is fine. But putting together these fantasy lines of Bennett centering the 3rd or 2nd line is not going to happen.

And I would probably believe the 3 head coaches and multiple assistant coaches that decide he is being played where he should be. I don't dislike Bennett but I do accept him as a grinder winger who will chip in 10-12 goals.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I would love nothing more than to see Bennett being utilized in the top 6 for a stretch of 15-20 games and see how he grows. If not, then as a #3 centre for that same stretch of games WITH some players that have skill and can play at some pace.



I also think that some of his poor penalties can probably be attributed to him trying to do too much physically and defensively - probably the pressure from trying to be a difference maker.


Bennett often shows an impressive amount of skill - not just his 4 goal game. He is the 2nd best puck carrying forward on the team next to Gaudreau (as evidenced by how he matches Gaudreau in the skills competition). I see him make some really good passes now and then, and then his line mates (Neal, Brouwer, etc) don't or just can't make use of it. Then he shares the ice with Monahan and/or Gaudreau, and suddenly those quick passes connect for a goal, and for some reason, he ends up moving to a different line.


I would really like to see him play for a good length of time with some talent in a scoring role. He was highly touted coming out of junior, he plays with a tonne of grit, and he does exhibit a high-level of skill in his game which is underutilized. I really think that Hartley is the only coach that positively impacted his development.


Now, Bennett might remain *THIS* underwhelming given his draft position - some of the negative posts regarding him might turn out to be right. I would just love to see Ward give him a long look in a more offensive capacity WITH some decently skilled players to see how (or even if) he improves and shows some development. I like Dube and Mangiapane, but IMO this franchise desperately needs Bennett to work out - not just because of his draft pedigree and the overall investment into that selection, but because he can inject 'toughness and grit' into the most important area of the team - the top 6. Top 6 players who are tough as nails AND can produce are so very valuable. I would love to see this team try and give him a really positive development opportunity.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

You would think after seeing how Backlund developed people would have a bit more patience with Bennett. At worst he is a hard checking player that can chip in some points while bringing it in big games. At best he still had a lot of potential to be a top 6 mainstay.

I'll give him this, Bennett has been vastly more productive from a pure points perspective up to this point of his career as opposed to Backlund. Prior to this season, Bennett never put up fewer than 26 points (4 straight 26+ point seasons) - Backlund had 25 pts at age 21 and wouldn't break 30 until he was 24.