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Old 07-13-2018, 01:07 AM   #121
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Thinking back on it, without Fleury there's a really good chance that I wouldn't have been cheering for the Flames as a kid during the dark years of the mid to late nineties and that, surprisingly, is the time when my being a fan of the Flames really solidified. Without Fleury, there's a decent chance I just wouldn't have developed as the type of fan of the team to still be cheering for them more than 15 years after leaving the city.

I can't imagine I'm the only one who became a fan of the Flames as a kid in large part because of the excitement of Theo Fleury.

Certainly, there aren't many kids who become fans by cheering for the guys upstairs and the guys who don't even show up at the rink.
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Old 07-13-2018, 03:45 AM   #122
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I am in agreement, the Flames need to retire his number. All that matters to me is how he was the face of the franchise during his tenure here. His on ice accomplishments are second to none. Couldnt care less about how he may have said certain words when he departed the org after the trade. Nor do I care about his off ice issues or think they should be a reason as to why he hasnt had his banner raised.

All I care about is how a player performs when playing a sport. How they conduct themselves beyond that is irrelevant to me(role model or not a role model, ahole etc).

Get rid of the FAF program as well. Such an embarrassment to have this going on.
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Old 07-13-2018, 08:01 AM   #123
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Yes I've lost my humanity.

He's come out on the other side in life, so great for him. It wasn't looking good there for a while at the end of the career.

But this is a jersey retirement thread, and getting through and battling his hardships on an ongoing basis doesn't mean he is entitiled for a jersey retirement from the employer where he directed and still directs his anger and frustration, and likely hurt or had faith lost in him by a lot of people over the years who just wanted to help him.
Exactly is about his number being retired.
I just feel people are forgetting why he acted as he did and it looked like you were one of them.
Bugs me that some posters are saving no solely because of his off ice issues .
What he did on the ice for the flame despite his demons is too amazing to ignore because current owners and management is pretty and vindictive.
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:07 AM   #124
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Theo talks about Gaudreau not making it in his day, well, he wouldn't be anywhere near the NHL with the way the development system has evolved, off ice training in the years leading up to draft year, nevermind the increased awareness of substance abuse and programs that he would be in awhile in junior, which would prevent him from being on a big league roster.
In my opinion, this is an ugly cheap shot.

With the way the development system has evolved maybe he doesn't get repeatedly raped by his junior coach over a period of years.

"At a young and very impressionable age, I was stalked, preyed upon and sexually assaulted over 150 times by an adult my family and I trusted completely.

I was a boy with a big dream and the talent to match. I played hockey in the early morning hours, after school, on the weekends and holidays. I even dreamed of hockey. Everyone in my life knew of my passion and my talent, including convicted pedophile Graham James.

Mr. James was a well-known minor hockey coach, and he zeroed in on my family and me. He skillfully manipulated us all, and eventually my parents entrusted my care and well being to him in order to allow me to move to other towns and cities to advance my hockey dream. He was a larger than life figure with the hockey credentials and education as a teacher, to match, and it was drilled into me that he held the keys to making my dream become a reality.

I was just a kid. A child. I was completely under Graham James's control. And I was scared. I did not have the emotional skills, the knowledge, or the ability to stop the rapes or change my circumstances. I felt lost, alone, and helpless. And those feelings did not stop after I was able to get away from Mr. James; I continued to feel that way for 20+ years afterwards. I descended into years of drug addiction, alcoholism, and addictions to sex, gambling, rage. My loved ones, including my beloved children, spiralled down with me. The pain was all-encompassing. And no matter how many NHL games I won, or money I made, or fame I gained could dull the pain of having been sexually abused by Graham James. His sickness changed my life, changed the lives of everyone who was close to me, and caused more pain than can be measured.

Finally, after a night in the New Mexico desert with a gun in my mouth and finger on the trigger, I found the courage to get help and start a long process of healing. I am now reconciled with my children and family. I have been sober for 6 years and I have put the course of my professional life on an amazing path. I am fortunate to speak to victims, survivors, victors and advocates all over North America. From little boys to men as old as 82 tell me they too have been victimized. I am honoured each and every time they share with me. They shed tears, they tell me secrets they have never dared to tell anyone else, and they look for some sort of peace in the midst of their hell.


That's from Fleury's victim impact statement.

Fleury's battles with addiction and personality conflicts are, in my opinion, a significant reason why he should be honoured by the Flames.

They shouldn't be used to denigrate his significant accomplishments because you think he would've been weeded out by modern training programs. As if guys like Ferland, Poirier, McGrattan and probably a host of other players we don't know about didn't also make the NHL ranks despite their substance use issues.

But there it is again, it doesn't come down to what Fleury meant to the organization, it comes down to rumour and innuendo about his shady past and how he was difficult to deal with.

A grudge, essentially.

Do the Flames even exist if Fleury isn't on the roster between 94 and 99? As Flashpoint said, is "Forever a Flame" a glorified employee of the month club?
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Old 07-13-2018, 09:49 PM   #125
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Nobody is discounting what he went through. It was a horrible and unimaginable thing to have to go through, and I hope that there is a special place in hell for James.


However, you simply can't excuse Theo for his behavior either. Heck, I would be more satisfied if the Flames honored Sheldon Kennedy as a Forever a Flame for coming out when he did, encouraging other players to come out at that time, and showing James as the monster for what he was. How many other kids would this monster have destroyed if not for Kennedy at the time? Sheldon Kennedy was a complete hero and trailblazer at the time, and got the whole world talking about it.



I still say you can't honor a player that has been proven to be a terrible team mate and a terrible ambassador for your organization. You just can't do it IMO, especially as he continues his actions against this same organization. I would never expect to be honored by an organization if I have continually been a difficult employee to deal with, and who made life more difficult for my coworkers, regardless of the quality of work I put in.
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Old 07-13-2018, 10:23 PM   #126
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Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe View Post
Nobody is discounting what he went through. It was a horrible and unimaginable thing to have to go through, and I hope that there is a special place in hell for James.


However, you simply can't excuse Theo for his behavior either. Heck, I would be more satisfied if the Flames honored Sheldon Kennedy as a Forever a Flame for coming out when he did, encouraging other players to come out at that time, and showing James as the monster for what he was. How many other kids would this monster have destroyed if not for Kennedy at the time? Sheldon Kennedy was a complete hero and trailblazer at the time, and got the whole world talking about it.



I still say you can't honor a player that has been proven to be a terrible team mate and a terrible ambassador for your organization. You just can't do it IMO, especially as he continues his actions against this same organization. I would never expect to be honored by an organization if I have continually been a difficult employee to deal with, and who made life more difficult for my coworkers, regardless of the quality of work I put in.
Nobody is discounting the horrific abuse? U are.
You just don't get it.
I cant believe you just posted what you did after flash walkens post. Difficult employee? Seriously? Shame on you
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:18 PM   #127
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Originally Posted by GordonBlue View Post
Nobody is discounting the horrific abuse? U are.
You just don't get it.
I cant believe you just posted what you did after flash walkens post. Difficult employee? Seriously? Shame on you
What are you talking about? How is addressing Theo’s behaviour in the last 10 years discounting abuse? What a pathetic way to position the discussion.

Oh you disagree with me, therefore you’re marginalizing a victim of abuse.

You should be ashamed for even accusing someone of such BS to win an internet argument. You’re the one trivializing Theo’s experience by using that crap to try and win internet points. Pathetic.
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Old 07-13-2018, 11:49 PM   #128
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Nobody is discounting the horrific abuse? U are.
You just don't get it.
I cant believe you just posted what you did after flash walkens post. Difficult employee? Seriously? Shame on you

Wow... shaming me? Shame on you for completely missing the mark and changing the intent of my post. What a completely ridiculous summation of my post. This might just be the most ridiculous response I have ever read to one of my posts that goes beyond rationality.


Yes, I have a different take than you, so I must of course not give a damn about a kid (at the time) being totally destroyed. That's the most logical conclusion for you, right? You must have missed the point of wishing a special place in hell for James, and how horrible of an act it was.


Seriously, I might get banned for this, but if this is what you got from my post, then you are a complete imbecile.
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:03 AM   #129
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Wow... shaming me? Shame on you for completely missing the mark and changing the intent of my post. What a completely ridiculous summation of my post. This might just be the most ridiculous response I have ever read to one of my posts that goes beyond rationality.


Yes, I have a different take than you, so I must of course not give a damn about a kid (at the time) being totally destroyed. That's the most logical conclusion for you, right? You must have missed the point of wishing a special place in hell for James, and how horrible of an act it was.


Seriously, I might get banned for this, but if this is what you got from my post, then you are a complete imbecile.
What I mostly got from your post was an obvious dislike for Theo and trying to find shallow reasons why his number should not be retired. Instead of focusing on the positive contributions he not only made on the ice as a Flame but also in so many lives of abuse victims with his seminars you chose to focus on the negatives, some of which are pure speculation. Your post would have been better received if you just came out and said I don't like the guy so I personally don't want to see his number retired even though it clearly should be.
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:53 AM   #130
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If the Flames weren't benefiting from having him on the team back in the day, they could have let him go. I would assume there was at least some compassion involved from the organization at the time, but I don't believe that they were keeping him around just out of the goodness of their hearts. He may have been difficult for them, but without him there may not have even been a Calgary Flames anymore. Difficult situation for both sides. Both sides suffered some and benefited plenty. For the fans though, Theo was the heart of the team for years. The value of the Flames exists largely in having a fan base, and Theo contributed a huge amount to that, especially when the organization was on the ropes and potentially facing starting over in a new city. He has a special and irreplaceable place in the history of the Flames and the hearts of many fans. Add on to that his all-time great stats for the team and I think he deserves to have his number up there, regardless of whether or not it was an imperfect employment situation.

Really, summing up the influence of both his words and actions on and off the ice, there is still no doubt that Theo is one of the top all-time contributors to the Flames as a hockey team and as an organization that depends upon fans.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:09 AM   #131
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Retire #14 already. It's hard to believe some Flames fans even question this. Theo and Jerome are the two greatest Flames of all-time.

It should be 14, 12, 9, 2, 34 in the rafters. Set it right and abolish the embarrassing "Forever A Flame".
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:26 AM   #132
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Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger View Post
What are you talking about? How is addressing Theo’s behaviour in the last 10 years discounting abuse? What a pathetic way to position the discussion.

Oh you disagree with me, therefore you’re marginalizing a victim of abuse.

You should be ashamed for even accusing someone of such BS to win an internet argument. You’re the one trivializing Theo’s experience by using that crap to try and win internet points. Pathetic.
Not trying to win internet points. They guy said Theo should not be honored because of his behaviour despite his behaviour being a direct result of the abuse. If he can't understand why that behaviour should be forgiven, he is dismisding the abuse or for some reason hates the individual. I'm done with the topic so you two can now go back to the name calling as you think it wins you two internet points.
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Old 07-14-2018, 09:29 AM   #133
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Wow... shaming me? Shame on you for completely missing the mark and changing the intent of my post. What a completely ridiculous summation of my post. This might just be the most ridiculous response I have ever read to one of my posts that goes beyond rationality.


Yes, I have a different take than you, so I must of course not give a damn about a kid (at the time) being totally destroyed. That's the most logical conclusion for you, right? You must have missed the point of wishing a special place in hell for James, and how horrible of an act it was.


Seriously, I might get banned for this, but if this is what you got from my post, then you are a complete imbecile.
You’re saying he “he continues his actions against the organization”. Not to pick on you as others say this also.

For those that bring this up, could we please be more specific about what Fleury is currently doing to harm the organization?
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Old 07-14-2018, 12:39 PM   #134
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You’re saying he “he continues his actions against the organization”. Not to pick on you as others say this also.

For those that bring this up, could we please be more specific about what Fleury is currently doing to harm the organization?
I'm curious about this as well.

But if the complaints boil down to "He's been critical of Flames management and players from a hockey perspective" then that's worrisome.
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:18 PM   #135
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What I mostly got from your post was an obvious dislike for Theo and trying to find shallow reasons why his number should not be retired. Instead of focusing on the positive contributions he not only made on the ice as a Flame but also in so many lives of abuse victims with his seminars you chose to focus on the negatives, some of which are pure speculation. Your post would have been better received if you just came out and said I don't like the guy so I personally don't want to see his number retired even though it clearly should be.

Shallow reasons? Hey, I don't know Fleury personally, and I just because I don't worship him and his time as a Flames doesn't mean I dislike him and have to find 'shallow reasons' to prove a point.


Yes, his community work should be lauded. He has been touching the lives of many victims of abuse, and I think he has become a difference maker in the lives of many people. I hope he continues. However, this does not excuse his behavior when it comes to the Flames.

It is truly heartbreaking what he went through. Nobody should ever go through what he did as a kid. Let me emphasize that again before another poster with inadequate reading comprehension skills tries to read between the lines in this post and accuse me of not caring about that. We talk about people being 'monsters' at times, but it is overused. James was an absolute monster. A human being should never do that to a child, and I hope he burns in hell for what he did to Theo, to Sheldon, and to what is probably a multitude of other victims. It destroyed every single kid that he did that too. It showed in Theo's life unquestionably, and without knowing him personally and not being a psychologist, is probably at the root cause of all his issues.


His on-ice performance and skill was absolutely incredible. There is nobody questioning that. For some, this is where the argument begins and ends. For others - like myself - it isn't enough.


I believe when a team retires a jersey, it is the highest honor a team can give a player to recognize his contributions to the team and community. Now I ask you this - was Theoren Fleury a positive contributer to the team and community? Hmm.. at times, yes. At times, definitely not.


I don't know how old you are, or how many newspaper articles you read while he was here, but there were serious issues with Fleury that made me stop being a fan of his (and I was a huge fan, as literally 99% of all Calgarians were I would guess). My first issue was "he is not getting along with his team mates and causing conflict" (IIRC, Roberts and Nieuwendyk, though I honestly don't remember exactly who). Then the "rumors of him being such an a-hole to people". Stuff you don't (and shouldn't) put too much credence into unless you have first-hand knowledge.


Then came an article in the Herald in which he himself states so matter-of-factly that: "I don't need to practice. It makes me tired. Besides, I am too talented and shouldn't have to. My team mates should practice." WTF? Imagine being one of Fleury's team mates? Proves that the reasons above probably held at least SOME merit. It wasn't rumor. Fleury himself said this to a reporter - at a time when the media was extremely friendly and the plague of Eric Francis didn't exist.



Then once you start seeing your 'hero' as someone who is probably not such a good guy after all, you start to see his selfishness on the ice. How much of a puck-hog he became. How he would take way too many selfish penalties. Probably the last 2 seasons I was hoping he would be traded away, and I predicted that the players left would blossom with him out of the picture - and I argue that Bure and Iginla both did.


Ok, so he is playing on other teams, gets himself into a whole lot of trouble with is off-ice issues - again, most likely stemming from his tragic past - and the NHL suspends him from the league indefinitely.



Here comes the Flames with open arms, giving him a chance to retire, collect a pension and go out as a hero to a city that worshiped him. What an honor to reach out and do that, right? How are the Flames repaid? Fleury blasts the Flames for him not making it. He even goes so far as to openly criticize Conroy for being on the team. That's a proverbial good kick to the nuts, no?



The Flames have a multitude of reasons as to why Fleury shouldn't be honored. One could assume that the organization could even be apprehensive about retiring him for fear of him saying something to embarrass the organization.


Some people who are still huge fans of his see his production and talent, and how he seemed to play with his heart on his sleeve all the time, and disregard everything else as meaningless, or say it should be ignored given his tragic past. I can understand that. I feel that although his past was indeed tragic and unfair, he did not embody what I feel is a player that the Flames should honor with a jersey retirement. He also won no major awards in the NHL, other than the Stanley Cup when he came in as a rookie. I don't see a player that is deserving of having a jersey retirement. The standard should be higher - on ice production, awards, AND CONDUCT, especially with regards to the organization and the community at large. Fleury's conduct with team mates and his conduct off the ice while representing the Calgary Flames is, IMO, not deserving of having his jersey retired. Heck, I bet if the Flames end up retiring his jersey, the owners and management team would be rattled and anxious that day wondering if Fleury was going to say something to embarrass the organization.


People who are diehard Fleury fanatics will not agree with my points, but calling them shallow is your opinion. Stating that I dislike him is wrong and trying to discredit my post and rationale. However, Gordon's take on my view of his tragic past was abhorrent and disgusting, so at least you didn't do that.


Had Fleury been a better team mate and example of what a Calgary Flame should be, I would 100% be campaigning for his retirement. He wasn't that during his time with the Flames. I am glad that he has been doing better and making a huge difference in the community now, and he deserves a tonne of recognition for it, but it shouldn't be through the Calgary Flames.
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Old 07-14-2018, 01:39 PM   #136
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How can such a long post still end up being so wrong at the end? I thought you would have talked yourself out of your (wrong) position on Fleury by the end of it.

I’m kidding, of course. You are wrong, though.
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Old 07-14-2018, 03:17 PM   #137
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I read that Calgary4Life's long post to say:

1) Fleury didn't get along with some teammates. Meh. And maybe he didn't get along with Nieuwendyk because he knew Joe was going to screw the Flames?

1a) Apparently he may be a jerk to some people, but we shouldn't put any belief in that unless we have first hand experience. I'm assuming then that Calgary4Life has some first hand experience with this to put it out there, otherwise...

2) He admitted he didn't like to / doesn't need to practice. Again, meh. And unless he skipped out on practices, not sure what the big dust-up is unless we don't want players telling us anything about what they think.


If that was the "con" side of my ledger, I'd have a hard time seeing it overcome the "pro" side. To each their own.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:31 PM   #138
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I read that Calgary4Life's long post to say:

1) Fleury didn't get along with some teammates. Meh. And maybe he didn't get along with Nieuwendyk because he knew Joe was going to screw the Flames?

1a) Apparently he may be a jerk to some people, but we shouldn't put any belief in that unless we have first hand experience. I'm assuming then that Calgary4Life has some first hand experience with this to put it out there, otherwise...

2) He admitted he didn't like to / doesn't need to practice. Again, meh. And unless he skipped out on practices, not sure what the big dust-up is unless we don't want players telling us anything about what they think.


If that was the "con" side of my ledger, I'd have a hard time seeing it overcome the "pro" side. To each their own.
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Old 07-14-2018, 04:38 PM   #139
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In terms of being an electrifying hockey player along with heart, grit and determination, Theoren Fleury was definitely Top 10 all time.
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Old 07-14-2018, 06:49 PM   #140
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.... Now I ask you this - was Theoren Fleury a positive contributer to the team and community? Hmm.. at times, yes. At times, definitely not.
....
This is what I don't get. ”Hmm.. at times, yes.”

I'm sure there were problems back in the day, but there's no doubt that on balance Theo's positive contribution has greatly outweighed the negative.
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