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Old 05-29-2021, 11:10 AM   #101
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To me this is another huge strike against Treliving (first being coaching choices). His drafting department is seemingly one of the best in the league, yet Treliving left them with league bottom draft capital. I don't know how much of this ownership pressure, but it's really disheartening to think of where the Flames would be if they hadn't rushed the rebuild.
Yup I've never disagreed with that. But I also think it was based on a somewhat logical assumption that the team's core was going to continue to progress.

But yes I think they prematurely used draft capital to try to accelerate the contention window.
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Old 05-29-2021, 11:13 AM   #102
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They wanted Parsons at 35 so they had him ranked ahead of Carter Hart, Kyrou, Debrincat, Hronek, Samuel Girard etc FYI
Parsons not developing into the player the Flames would have liked has a lot more to do with his injuries than some sort of player evaluation misjudgment, I would argue.

All this seems like a curious bone to pick. I’m sure if you looked, every team will have had prospects that didn’t reach their potential due to injury or personal issues. The Flames have had several and I’m reasonably certain, they’re not alone.

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Old 05-29-2021, 11:15 AM   #103
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Originally Posted by atb View Post
To me this is another huge strike against Treliving (first being coaching choices). His drafting department is seemingly one of the best in the league, yet Treliving left them with league bottom draft capital. I don't know how much of this ownership pressure, but it's really disheartening to think of where the Flames would be if they hadn't rushed the rebuild.
How many guys are there in any given draft though? Just because the Flames may have had more picks is no guarantee they would have developed more MHL players. No matter how you slice it, draft picks are still a long shot.
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Old 05-29-2021, 11:20 AM   #104
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How many guys are there in any given draft though? Just because the Flames may have had more picks is no guarantee they would have developed more MHL players. No matter how you slice it, draft picks are still a long shot.
I would argue though that's why you want more bullets in the chamber. Take multiple home run cuts and maximize your chance to get a franchise changing player.
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Old 05-29-2021, 11:36 AM   #105
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So Sieloff is a good pick too?

He won gold at world juniors and his development was negatively impacted with an awful staph infection

Just curious on the logic here
Yes he was!

Didn't love the Jankowski pick but moving down to get a second and draft a solid stay at home hard hitting defenseman that was good enough to play for the US at the WJC was a good move by Feaster

His draft year +1 was excellent.
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Old 05-29-2021, 12:38 PM   #106
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I would argue though that's why you want more bullets in the chamber. Take multiple home run cuts and maximize your chance to get a franchise changing player.
For sure. More draft picks is not a bad thing.

What I think we’ve been reading ad nasium around here recently is a lot of ruminating where the sentiment seems to be; if only the Flames had not spent the draft capital they did 2015-2018, then surely we would have been better off. Truth of it is, there is no telling.

IIRC, Treliving said something to the effect that they had kids coming, may have been after the first Hamilton trade, or maybe it was the Hamonic trade. They wanted to strike a balance between NHL players and developing a pipeline of NHL caliber prospects.

Did they place the wrong bet? Hard to say they didn’t at the moment. I’m sure Treliving is more aware of this than anyone. It is interesting though that Treliving has added three thirds (two at the draft, one with Rittich) and two seconds (including Hienamen) recently.
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Old 05-29-2021, 12:59 PM   #107
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The Flames thought they had a Hallmark made for TV movie. The real prospect gets injured, the grizzled scout that hates the world is forced to drive through the snow storm that all the other scouts chickened out and opted to hang around Tim Hortons swapping lies, and the unknown kid in off the Farm throws a perfect game with 110 mph fastball.... (had to use a baseball analogy because Highschool hockey has a lot of 5-6 goal scores if mercy rules are not evoked).

Then they could have been humble say they were worried that he might be drafted by accident before the 2nd round after he showed up to the draft like he was a legit 1st round pick and was hanging around.

Instead they spiked the ball!! Not in the endzone or anywhere near the endzone, 4 years away from the goal-line.

Woo Hoo look at us!! we are so much smarter than the rest of these dumbass scouts and staff. They should all be embarrassed and likely fired.

PS. The sad part is that he exceeded expectations of everyone who had him as a 3rd round longshot prospect. He was a great AHL player and a solid NHL rookie and Made 5M USD in the NHL.

Somehow the Flames coaches wiped out his potential (enjoyment of hockey?) and left him done at 26.

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Old 05-29-2021, 01:19 PM   #108
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On Parsons, I also find it helpful to look at the next picks to get a sense of who else was a possibility.
The best next pick after Parsons (at 54) is actually Dube (at 56) apart from that in the rest of the 2nd round you have Dylan Grambell and Carl Grundstrom as the only NHLers.

You have to go into the 3rd round to find the next great pick - which is Adam Fox.

After that you are going to Victor Mete in the 4th round to find the next established NHLer.

How is that not some terrific work by the scouting staff in that draft? They arguably have the two best picks from around #50 through the rest of the draft.
This, along with the draft picks that have had some signs of being NHL players, actually shows that drafting under Treliving has improved considerably, and has been a positive contribution of the franchise. Based on the overall result of his work, I'm not in favour of keeping him, but I'm also not overly upset if he's given more time all the same since his drafting has finally made the franchise get some pieces that can be developed and graduate within the system. And in this cap universe I feel that is the lifeblood of a franchise. If the GM does a good job for building for the future, they will be successful.

We're already seeing the benefits now, and could be seeing it be a continuous flow into the next few seasons; especially if Flames draft more early round pick in general from here on out rather than trading them for players they thought would put them over the edge.

I just hope that Treliving and Sutter recognize this, and intend to leave a spot or two vacant per season for a prospect that is ready for the NHL so all this talent isn't wasted on the farm team for a veteran player that doesn't really make a big enough impact on the bottom lines.
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Old 05-29-2021, 01:53 PM   #109
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Drafting under Treliving went from horrible to mediocre

Apparently that is enough to make plenty of people happy
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Old 05-29-2021, 01:55 PM   #110
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Drafting under Treliving went from horrible to mediocre

Apparently that is enough to make plenty of people happy
As I researched ... 2nd in games played / draft capital in the 2015-2020 drafts.

You don't have to agree with that as a method, but it's not subjective at all.

So no ... not mediocre. Actually excellent. Why not focus on the thing you have him on? Trading too many picks.

Attacking his draft record is just showing the world that you have made up your mind on something (someone) and won't even entertain actual data or facts that don't support your entrenched view.
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Old 05-29-2021, 02:46 PM   #111
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Just not true.

Luckily it's easy to pull on actual data and see the Flames are getting NHL players with limited draft capital.
Are they? Are the Flames getting NHL players are are they contributing to the Calgary Flames become a better hockey team and generate more wins than losses?

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As I researched ... 2nd in games played / draft capital in the 2015-2020 drafts.
Sounds like a new fancy stat? How about actual results? Edmonton was pretty good at making sure their draft picks got a number of games in, which inflated silly stats like this. Unfortunately, all those players were pretty crap and didn't contribute to a winner. I see the same pattern developing in Calgary. I don't see the team getting any better because of players drafted from within.

Also, I think credit should only be given to players that actually suited up for the Flames, and not other teams. Part of the draft and development process is finding players who will play for YOU, and not someone else. So giving the team credit for a player you didn't have confidence in, and dumped one way or another, isn't right IMO.

For example, the 2011 draft looks like a homerun for the Flames! Five players selected and they all played in the NHL! Success!!! Except that those players played a combined 1,259 games in the NHL, but only 720 of those games were in Flames uniforms. If you remove Gaudreau's 520 games, that means of the other player's 739 games, only 182 were for the Flames, or less than 25%.

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Attacking his draft record is just showing the world that you have made up your mind on something (someone) and won't even entertain actual data or facts that don't support your entrenched view.
I don't see anyone attacking the guy's draft record, just putting it into perspective. The whole idea of drafting and player development is to make the team better. Has THAT happened under Treliving? No, it has not. The team is worse, the minor league system is bereft of talent, and the future is one of the least attractive in the league. The drafting and player development system is failing the team and not getting the job done. I would say the Flames are mediocre at drafting at best. That could change if Treliving would give his scouts the picks to leverage, but he doesn't. We've got huge gaps in the system and that will hurt the team as they try to retool and remain relevant.
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Old 05-29-2021, 03:05 PM   #112
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Drafting under Treliving went from horrible to mediocre

Apparently that is enough to make plenty of people happy
You seem to be driving the point home that Flames fans are happy with mediocrity, you've mentioned it twice now.

That's just a terrible take.
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Old 05-29-2021, 03:12 PM   #113
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This has been an issue that has irked me about Treliving for a while now, and forms my argument as to why the Flames should move on from him.

I argue that the Flames are one of the better drafting teams in the NHL. I also argue that they came out of the rebuild way too quickly spending draft capital. Now, Hamilton was a good player and provided good value at the time, and he certainly was young enough, but I do openly wonder sometimes if those picks wouldn't have turned into important pieces on the Flames right now as well. However, I don't judge that move to be a bad one, but there has been a lot of other draft capital being spent in trying to fill holes or upgrade the roster.

Maybe it was Burke? He has on many occasions stated that he believes a rebuild should be quick. Perhaps that has influenced Treliving - I don't know. For a team that hasn't even been a regular playoff team, Trevling should not have been spending as many draft picks as bona fide contenders around the league.

In terms of how Calgary is as an organization, I would say it is poorly-run now.

Let's look at different areas of the organization.

Drafting: I think this team has been one of the best drafting teams in the NHL. Some years better than others, but since the '07 draft, it has been great. Scratch that. Flames have been awesome at drafting. Yes, Parsons was not a bad pick. He was not a good pick either. He was a fricken out of the park home-run pick. Injuries, personal issues and arguably development have held him back from progressing, but if you want to put a 'fail' at drafting Parsons, there really isn't a point in having a conversation.

Development: I think this team USED to be one of the best development teams in the NHL as well. You can't argue with so many home-grown talents making huge contributions, starting with Backlund, Brodie, Ferland, and I will even count Giordano, as it doesn't make a difference if it was a pick or a free agent prospect. Continued on to Gaudreau, Monahan, Mangiapane and others. It is a pretty good list. However, lately, I do start to question it. I won't say it has been bad, but I do think that from around the time that Hartley was let-go, and the switch suddenly went to 'compete!', this team has made it more difficult for players to develop. Mangiapane has really done well. Andersson was doing well, but he has plateaued. Dube is kind of hiccuping along right now. Kylington is in no man's land of absolute no development time. Bennett was not really developed by the looks of it, though we will see how much better he has become with a full season next year. I am certainly not stating it is bad, but it doesn't seem to be AS GOOD as it was, and certainly has been questionable at times.

Asset Management: This is a mixed bag for me. I like how Calgary traded guys like Glencross, Russell, Hudler, etc., for picks. I HATE how they brought in guys like Bollig, Fatenberg, Forbort, Gustavsson.. Lots of small little cuts. Hindsight is hindsight, but this team was not a contender. Not only did the Flames lose assets for.. what exactly??... but they also lost development time for Kylington and or even Yelesin (who looked ok in a short amount of games). I get the notion of wanting depth in case of a playoff run, but I still didn't like it at the time. Lots of small cuts being made bringing players in who didn't move the needle. Spending assets on poor players like Elliott, or Hamonic - those were deep cuts. Brodie walking for free - what are the Flames? Did they win the cup and were unable to re-sign an important piece? Brodie did want to return. If Treliving didn't want to re-sign him, he should have traded him the prior off-season. Yes, it fell through, but he should have found another deal somewhere else - Brodie was a valuable piece that the Flames got nothing for. I just really dislike the draft capital being used to try and plug holes every season.

Cap Management: Since the cap has been implemented, the best teams are basically those that get their bang for their buck. Seems like there has been a buyout on the books every year that Treliving has been here. I like Lucic, and that was a trade that I supported as soon as the rumours were leaked as a way to mitigate the disaster of the Neal contract, but that's still a poor contract. However, buyouts weren't too bad, and the Lucic isn't THAT overpaid (and I have always supported intangibles, and Lucic brings defence, physicality, the role of an enforcer, and a tonne of leadership). It is still a negative contract, on top of a number of others that have been handed out in UFA Frenzy. Though we do not know what will happen as of yet, I really dislike the contract that Tkachuk received. I really hated when it was signed, but the result I guess is yet to be determined. Hey, if he signs a long-term team friendly - to - fair deal, great! I wouldn't hold my breath, however.

Staff Hires: Well, the coaching decisions have obviously not been great. I believe that a GM should get to hire his own coach, and though I was disappointed with the Hartley firing, I understood and accepted it. However, there were 3 consecutive poor hires afterwards until Sutter. That's unacceptable. However, there have been other hires as well. I liked the Loob hire - out of the park! I liked the expanded assistant GMs. I liked the overall expansion of the front office - Snow being moved up, Johnson brought-in to work in Analytics. I don't mind Maloney brought in - Arizona I thought was always a well-managed team under the circumstances anyway, outside of the last year or two that Maloney was there when things kind of went sideways. I am very unhappy with the coaching hires overall, as I do feel they wasted the best years of this club. I am mostly fine through very happy with the other hires. Really happy with more scouts, for instance. Seems like pro-scouting hasn't worked out. Happy they brought LaBarbera in last season, though I wish they had brought in someone with a long track record.

General Direction: If the above isn't arbitrary enough, this is where most arguments will happen. Where is this team heading? Are they looking like they are closer to being a cup winner? Or are they heading in the wrong direction? Well, I will preface this by saying that I believe Calgary will be a playoff team IF every player from last season is brought back, and you have Sutter as the coach for the full season. I think a lot of things did go wrong that shouldn't have (bad luck), and I really disliked how Ward had this team playing. I do believe that a modern NHL game is a fast game, and Sutter gets it. Fast on the transition, high energy, high effort hockey. Flames may need to upgrade on their 'best in the NHL trainer' as Sutter made a point to mention that this team overall wasn't fit enough! However, is that good enough? Just making the playoffs is good enough now? Not for me. It was great for 2015. It was great for 2016 even. Since then, you want to be able to do more than just make it, given the expenditure of futures and the accumulation of cap hits. This team to me looks like it should consider rebuilding, as opposed to contending. The defence are a mess - one of the lowest scoring defence corps in the league, and looking to get worse with the likely departure of the Captain, with nobody looking like they can fill even his very old worn skates. The Tkachuk contract needs to be addressed THIS OFF-SEASON, as does the Gaudreau contract. Another year in a row where the 'core' is questioned. Some big moves are coming, but why does it feel like Calgary is going to lose the best players in any trade? It is not fair to grade Treliving on moves he has yet to make, but I do think that defence has suddenly become a weakness on this team. It took 7 seasons for Treliving to finally find a fix in net (though the overall numbers haven't suggested it is a fix, I do believe that Markstrom will be a fix). Other holes popped up, and continue to pop up. It certainly feels like the team is headed in the wrong direction at this point. I think a team has to sell you either on their success, or on their hope of having success down the road. There most certainly isn't any success to speak of under Treliving, and I do feel like that hope has disappeared. When a team isn't giving you success or hope, it gives you frustration and anger next. Do this for long enough, and guess what starts to set in? Apathy. That's the worst thing to happen to an entertainment business.


Success: I will give Treliving some credit for the 2015 run in which this team made it to the 2nd round. I mean, most of those players weren't his. Neither was the coach. However, he did add players to the roster, and was the GM. However, since then? What success has this team had? I will tell you exactly - 3 playoff game wins in 6 seasons. Maybe next year the Flames can make the playoffs and win a game, so it will be like a series win? For a team that has spent this much draft capital, there is ZERO excuse for that. For a team that is looking like they are going to follow in the footsteps of the 2010 team? This team is no better than a playoff bubble team. To be fair, they did manage to finish 2nd overall (and first in the west) one year. That's still a good accomplishment. That year, the team that finished above them also got embarrassed in the playoffs, so how can you judge Treliving so terrible for that year? Well, that team went on to win the cup the next season. What did the Flames do?

I think it is lacking overall. Drafting is literally the only really good thing this team is doing well on. When you look at other top teams around the league, it seems like they are doing better on more things than the Flames, and that's key. Teams have to consistently be good at many things at once over a period of time. Drafting, developing, managing their cap and coaching seem to be the most critical. Show me a team in the modern era that wasn't a good team at all of them.


That's the argument that I make. I don't think you necessarily have to tank and draft #1 to win a cup (or top 3, or top 5). That's not why Calgary isn't a cup winner. Heck, who here would rather have RNH over Gaudreau? Replace Giordano with Hedman (and upgrade - not being cheeky), and is this suddenly a cup winning team? Replace Monahan with Mathews. Does this team win the cup, or suddenly a cup favourite? I don't think so. Better? Yes, but will that translate to more noteworthy success?


Treliving to me will go down as a forgettable GM. Wasn't terrible, but wasn't memorable. The most memorable, likeable and successful team under his tenure came during his first season, and to me, that speaks volumes.


Lots of draft capital spent - as much as actual cup winning teams - but 3 playoff game wins in 6 seasons, and a team that is looking like it is spiralling down. I would say that he has taken this team as far as he could. I am not afraid of worse - worse will quicken this team into a rebuild and give me even a false sense of hope. There is no success, and there is no hope. Keep this up, and for the first time since the Flames moved to Calgary, I might develop apathy.
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Old 05-29-2021, 04:02 PM   #114
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As I researched ... 2nd in games played / draft capital in the 2015-2020 drafts.

You don't have to agree with that as a method, but it's not subjective at all.

So no ... not mediocre. Actually excellent. Why not focus on the thing you have him on? Trading too many picks.

Attacking his draft record is just showing the world that you have made up your mind on something (someone) and won't even entertain actual data or facts that don't support your entrenched view.
Did I miss this post? Flames picks are 2nd in games played in the NHL? That’s shocking. Would also imply the current prospects are way underrated.
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Old 05-29-2021, 04:08 PM   #115
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Did I miss this post? Flames picks are 2nd in games played in the NHL? That’s shocking. Would also imply the current prospects are way underrated.
If I understood the post from earlier
8th in games played
2nd in games played per draft pick
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Old 05-29-2021, 04:08 PM   #116
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As I researched ... 2nd in games played / draft capital in the 2015-2020 drafts.



You don't have to agree with that as a method, but it's not subjective at all.



So no ... not mediocre. Actually excellent. Why not focus on the thing you have him on? Trading too many picks.



Attacking his draft record is just showing the world that you have made up your mind on something (someone) and won't even entertain actual data or facts that don't support your entrenched view.
Curious. How many are playing those games with the Flames? I suspect quite a few are not. Which says to me that drafting is good but retaining, seeing players as nhlers and developing is awful.
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Old 05-29-2021, 05:44 PM   #117
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You seem to be driving the point home that Flames fans are happy with mediocrity, you've mentioned it twice now.

That's just a terrible take.
Just jumping in here, but while we may not be happy with the never ending cycle of mediocrity, there sure is a sizeable chunk of the fan base that is quick to excuse it and jump to the defence of its orchestrator.
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Old 05-29-2021, 05:47 PM   #118
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If I understood the post from earlier
8th in games played
2nd in games played per draft pick
Thank you. That’s a reasonable way to look at draft success. Not the only way, or even the definitive way of measuring quality but it has to mean something.

I’d imagine the years with Feaster as GM would have a very good ranking too. Look at that 2011 draft just as an example. Although 2013 draft after Monahan was abysmal.
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Old 05-29-2021, 07:17 PM   #119
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It is quiet because nothing is going to happen until after the playoffs. BT is not going anywhere, I am not saying he should or shouldn't, I am saying he won't. If trades are going to happen I expect they happen after the expansion draft at the earliest.
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Old 05-29-2021, 07:48 PM   #120
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Curious. How many are playing those games with the Flames? I suspect quite a few are not. Which says to me that drafting is good but retaining, seeing players as nhlers and developing is awful.
In order of gp:
Tkachuk 349
Andersson 216
Mangiapane 178
Fox 125
Dubé 121
Kylington 95
Valimaki 73

Ruzicka 3
Phillips 1

(numbers may not be exact as hockeydb list isn't always up to date).

So, only Fox is on another team. Which we all know the story of; it's not like the Flames didn't want him as sometimes happens.


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Are they? Are the Flames getting NHL players are are they contributing to the Calgary Flames become a better hockey team and generate more wins than losses?



Sounds like a new fancy stat? How about actual results? Edmonton was pretty good at making sure their draft picks got a number of games in, which inflated silly stats like this. Unfortunately, all those players were pretty crap and didn't contribute to a winner. I see the same pattern developing in Calgary. I don't see the team getting any better because of players drafted from within.

Also, I think credit should only be given to players that actually suited up for the Flames, and not other teams. Part of the draft and development process is finding players who will play for YOU, and not someone else. So giving the team credit for a player you didn't have confidence in, and dumped one way or another, isn't right IMO.
See above. IMO it's silly to subtract Fox, but whatever floats your boat.

I'd argue the top 5-6 guys have played important and fairly prominent roles. Most players first 50-250 games are a rollercoaster of good and bad. Ours are no different...I'd be surprised if they were below average with regards to role and/or performance in those games...
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