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Old 08-08-2020, 03:46 PM   #201
Enoch Root
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You sound like an Oilers fan...."BUT POINTS"
Pretty hard to take your post seriously when you start with that.

At the end of the day, it's a results league. And playoff results are the most valuable. And his playoff production has been consistently above his contract cost.

And he is one of a very few guys on this team that we can say that about.

The top line and the PPs can get the points in the regular season. I am glad we also have players that perform in the playoffs.
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Old 08-08-2020, 03:57 PM   #202
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Bennett is fine in the position he's in. I wouldn't change a thing.

Sliding him into the top 6 and PP all of a sudden isn't necessary. Its been tried. Just let him thrive in the role he's cut out for himself and try not to squeeze more out of him. His game doesn't work for the PP, it works on the rush and that 5 on 5 grind along the boards.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:20 PM   #203
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Originally Posted by Enoch Root View Post
Pretty hard to take your post seriously when you start with that.

At the end of the day, it's a results league. And playoff results are the most valuable. And his playoff production has been consistently above his contract cost.

And he is one of a very few guys on this team that we can say that about.

The top line and the PPs can get the points in the regular season. I am glad we also have players that perform in the playoffs.
Right....but you need to actually make the playoffs first.

Has Bennett been a guy that has helped the team get there? I would say...not really.

Kind of the entire point.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:31 PM   #204
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Right....but you need to actually make the playoffs first.

Has Bennett been a guy that has helped the team get there? I would say...not really.

Kind of the entire point.
Ah, he's helped less than others but more than some - and there's some evidence to suggest that better circumstances may help him help more.
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:41 PM   #205
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i wish we could see Bennett on a line where he's the worst player on it, rather than the best as he usually is
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Old 08-08-2020, 04:57 PM   #206
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Right....but you need to actually make the playoffs first.

Has Bennett been a guy that has helped the team get there? I would say...not really.

Kind of the entire point.
You need both players who can get you into the playoffs, and players who can help you win in the playoffs. Sometimes they’re the same guys, sometimes they aren’t.

Acting like the regular season is the only thing that matters is Oileresque. Most fans want to win a cup, and cup winners always include guys who didn’t do much in the regular season, but could find another level when it really counted.

Bennett is worth his contract because of what he brings in the playoffs. Thankfully, we also have guys who can get us into the playoffs. Lucic-Bennett-Dube is one of the biggest reasons we won in 4, and you could argue not one of those guys did much to help us get into the playoffs.

Having guys who find another level in the playoffs is why teams like LA can sneak in and then win it all. It’s why Chicago can knock out the Oilers in 4. And not having them is why the Oilers can be knocked I’m out by Chicago in 4, or why a President’s Trophy team fails in the first round. Players like Bennett are worth every penny, because when you’re going after what really matters, they produce.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:01 PM   #207
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Playoff Sam has a much smaller sample size than Regular Sam. Hard to conclude it is a real difference without more evidence.

I loved his last game, don’t get me wrong. Playing that way every night could also get you injured a lot.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:16 PM   #208
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Career PPG in the playoffs for the Flames top forwards:

Monahan:.... 0.792 (PP1)
Gaudreau:... 0.625 (PP1)
Lucic:......... 0.591 (PP2) (excluding his time in Boston)
Bennett:...... 0.583 (no PP time)
Lindholm:.... 0.555 (PP1)
Mangiapane: 0.555 (PP2)
Dube:......... 0.500 (only 4 games)
Backlund:.... 0.458 (PP2)
Tkachuk:..... 0.458 (PP1)
Ryan:.......... 0.222 (no PP time)

Playoff Bennett is a top 6 forward, even though he doesn't get top 6 line-mates, and he gets no PP time. He should be on PP2.

$2.55M for that kind of production is a bargain. Who cares what he does in the regular season?
Nice to see Bennett playing as well as he has been.

Not a snow balls chance I put him on PP2 over Mangiapane or Dubé.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:29 PM   #209
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Yeah, I don’t take Dube or Mang off PP2 - that’s important to both of their continued development.

If Looch slows down, I could see taking him off that unit for Benny - but right now that unit is clicking. Have to leave it as is!
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:30 PM   #210
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Playoff Sam has a much smaller sample size than Regular Sam. Hard to conclude it is a real difference without more evidence.

I loved his last game, don’t get me wrong. Playing that way every night could also get you injured a lot.
I'm not sure it's a real difference either.

But I'm also not convinced that regular season Bennett's numbers are reflective of his play. I do think confidence is a hell of a drug though, and when he's confident, he's a highly effective player.

Every year something doesn't match up between his individual play and the counting stats. And then in the playoffs, it seems like both things just get "corrected".

In 2014-15, his rookie season playoffs. 18 year old Sam Bennett played well, and was even robbed of a couple big goals. He was playing on a line with Backlund and Colborne though, and I'd argue Backlund remains the best linemate he's ever had. Quality of linemate was pretty directly correlated with his offensive production.

In 2015-16, Bennett had a respectable rookie season. Some lulls, sure, particularly when stapled to Marcus Granlund's wing and when centering Lance Bouma, but outside of that some real hot streak. His goal scoring in January of that season was pretty epic. He was at his most productive either on Backlund's wing or in his early short stint centering Gaudreau.

2016-17, he legitimately struggled with Troy Brouwer. It wasn't until late in the season that Brouwer was replaced with Chiasson, and that line's metrics shot through the roof, but their production as a line wasn't there in the regular season due to simply poor shooting percentages. It felt like the playoffs were just the dam breaking for that whole line (Versteeg and Chiasson as well). It was good timing for a guy whose play was trending up the last two months of the season. I thought he was our best center in the playoffs that year, and that's considering Monahan had an incredible playoffs. But I didn't see it as Bennett elevating his play - I just thought it was good timing after finally breaking free of Brouwer. One thing that really stood out about Bennett's regular season that year though was his shot suppression as a center. At 5v5 he had shot supression numbers as strong as Backlund, and he was outstanding on the penalty kill that year. His shot generation however was lacking, which makes sense considering he was playing with Brouwer.

In 2017-18, Bennett was a chance generation machine but posted the worst on-ice and individual shooting percentages of his career, by far. This wasn't unique to Bennett though, as guys even in our top six like Backlund, Gaudreau, and Frolik had abysmal seasons in terms of shooting percentage. One thing that really stood out this year, was that it was the polar opposite of the previous year. His shot suppression numbers were horrible, but his shot generation numbers were well up. I attribute this to an increase in linemate quality (Jankowski and Jagr were an upgrade on Brouwer), but a baffling move to the wing (Jankowski an inferior center to Bennett). What's interesting is that Bennett was among of the league leaders in shot assists this regular season. But if his linemates aren't finishing, he won't get actual counting assists.

In 2018-19, Bennett seemed to a spark to whichever line he was put on (see Neal's numbers with and without Bennett), but that meant Bennett himself got the short end of the stick in terms of linemates. In the playoffs, his production came not with Jankowski and Neal who he was playing with 5v5, but on the PP and on a stint in game 5 up the lineup with Gaudreau and Brodie. With his usual linemates, he actually had poor underlying numbers in the playoffs.

And then you have this season. The difference in linemates is obvious. Sam Bennett had zero secondary assists this season. Zero. You can pick up a secondary assist by doing almost nothing, if the other four guys you pass to can produce a goal. But it simply wasn't happening. Bennett himself was actually scoring and had around as many primary assists as guys like Dube, but the secondary assist were non-existant. He had an unsustainable season, and we see in the playoffs that the unsustainability simply ended.

I wish I could buy what the large sample size claims, but it just doesn't jive at all with the player on the ice. The player we see in the playoffs is practically the same player, albeit more physical. He simply produces more akin to what the eye test suggests he ought to be producing in the regular season. It's bizarre, but not unprecedented. Elias Lindholm's actually another guy whose numbers in Carolina were unremarkable due to similarly low on-ice shooting percentages, although he got far more opportunity there on a less talented roster.
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Old 08-08-2020, 05:54 PM   #211
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You sound like an Oilers fan...."BUT POINTS".
"but playoffs" isn't anything close to "but points". One is about winning, the other isn't.

Just admit he's played well and been an important piece dude. Dismissing one of the goals he scored because it banged around is a bad look. Iginla's 500h goal was a pass that went off of Mikko Koivu's skate.
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Old 08-08-2020, 06:19 PM   #212
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Nice to see Bennett playing as well as he has been.

Not a snow balls chance I put him on PP2 over Mangiapane or Dubé.
He should be there before Lucic.
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Old 08-08-2020, 06:59 PM   #213
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He should be there before Lucic.
no, Lucic is the ultimate net front
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Old 08-08-2020, 07:48 PM   #214
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What a silly straw-man. We had Stajan manning the back for years, we're used to having an overpriced 4C lol. Point is, if he's playing better than Ryan he deserves that lineup spot.
Both Stajan and Ryan are proven centers. Something Bennett is not aside from 5 games every spring (or summer in the case of 2020).
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:00 PM   #215
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no, Lucic is the ultimate net front
Defensemen don't try to push guys out as much any more, they often just let you stand there. So soft hands are at least as important as physical presence.

Also, power plays are always in motion and the guys aren't always where you would diagram them in. Occasionally, Lucic will find himself on the halfwall, trying to make a pass. And it usually doesn't go that well.
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Old 08-08-2020, 08:30 PM   #216
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Defensemen don't try to push guys out as much any more, they often just let you stand there. So soft hands are at least as important as physical presence.

Also, power plays are always in motion and the guys aren't always where you would diagram them in. Occasionally, Lucic will find himself on the halfwall, trying to make a pass. And it usually doesn't go that well.
Lucic led all Flames in Goals/60 on the PP this year at 2.8 (second place was Lindholm at 2.23) and was 6th on the Flames in Points/60 on the PP at 4.49.

His first 2 years in Edmonton, he led them in Goals/60 on the PP at 2.36 and was second behind only McJesus himself in Points/60 on the PP at 5.03 (McDavid was at 5.44)

He more than deserves his PP spot.
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Old 08-08-2020, 09:01 PM   #217
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He should be there before Lucic.
Not really.

The way that PP is set up and run is you have someone in front screening/looking for rebounds. Don’t think Sam is Ward’s best option for that.
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Old 08-08-2020, 10:45 PM   #218
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So, we are just taking Ryan back out to the shed? Where is he supposed to play after he has ACTUALLY made his linemates better and has contributed offensively. Are you suggesting we lock up 3+ mil on the fourth line center spot?
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But maybe he really isn't playing better than Bennett. This past season, Lucic-Ryan-Dube was a legitimate line.

Who is to say that isn't a more effective line than Bennett at centre. If it is as effective, then Bennett shouldn't be paid 2.55 MM because he will be back on the fourth line and won't contribute anything with bad linemates..

Or the Flames can give some young AHL forwards a shot in the NHL instead of guys like Rieder and Rinaldo.. maybe that will help the fourth line avoid becoming a dark hole.
Lucic-Bennett-Dubé = good
Lucic-Ryan-Dubé = good

Your conclusion is that Ryan makes his linemates better, but the inverse must be true with Bennett? And that it's unfair to put Ryan's extra 575k of salary on the 4th line? Or that Bennett is overpaid because he produces similarly to a guy who makes more than him?

Many things can be true at the same time. I understand why coaches prefer to deploy the journeyman instead of the overzealous apprentice. That decision makes sense every time in the heat of battle. But it's not the best thing for the organization's long-term development.

Of course you can't extrapolate this line of thinking too much, but if the difference between your team making/missing the playoffs is the delta between Bennett vs. Ryan at 3C, then you're simply a pretender anyways. Put your young players in the best positions to succeed until you are a legitimate contender.



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Both Stajan and Ryan are proven centers. Something Bennett is not aside from 5 games every spring (or summer in the case of 2020).
Were either of them proven C's by age 24? Ryan = obviously not. Stajan's first 4 seasons were statistically similar to Bennett...his 25 yo season Stajan broke out a bit to 55 pts. Similar story with Backlund.
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:02 PM   #219
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Playoff Sam has a much smaller sample size than Regular Sam. Hard to conclude it is a real difference without more evidence.

I loved his last game, don’t get me wrong. Playing that way every night could also get you injured a lot.
Yeah, I wouldn't mind 20 odd more games this year so I could make my mind up.
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Old 08-08-2020, 11:23 PM   #220
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Working on a piece for Flamesnation right now about Ryan. In short, you don't trade him because Bennett also works for the third line at 5v5 and so therefore he's obsolete. Ryan's value on the PK is enormous.
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