Ongoing thread for Neal/Lucic discussion

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

NMC concerns aside (which I really do think Treliving has to have considered), what exactly makes Lucic's deal a million times worse than Neal's?

Buyout proof, who cares. Buyouts should be avoided anyway whenever possible. (Cough Michael Stone, don't do it!)

Is Lucic worse than Neal? I'm not so sure. Does Lucic have a role in this team? Absolutely -- defensive specialist who hits and plays PP2 net-front. Neal had nothing nearly that defined.

Why do you want to buy out Michael Stone?

Even if he's been passed on the depth chart, give him the preseason to show the league he's suffering no ill effects from the blood clots and you can trade for something.

Or you keep him because injuries will happen and he's a good player.

No need for it, just my opinion.

[GreenLantern2814]

As much as we crack on Lucic for breaking down as he gets older, the guy has not played fewer than 79 games going back to 2010-11. With 84 playoff games on top of that.

He doesn't miss time. He has had 200+ hits in six straight seasons. Maybe he'll break down, but it hasn't happened yet. It's possible the Oilers just suck.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Why do you want to buy out Michael Stone?

Even if he's been passed on the depth chart, give him the preseason to show the league he's suffering no ill effects from the blood clots and you can trade for something.

Or you keep him because injuries will happen and he's a good player.

No need for it, just my opinion.

Well the Flames need to shed salary before the season. The options are fewer today than a month ago but like Scorp, I hate buyouts.

[dammage79]

There's a greater chance I guess Lucic is a better fit for this team than Neal was. Don't really care how good of a fit for Edmonton Neal is.

Nothing can help Edmonton. Nothing.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

This trade is throwing an anchor to a drowning man. He was probably drowning anyway, but now he’s dead.

Now this team has a $5 million 4th liner for next 4 years. That is really bad but OK, we know what we’ve got. Time to live with it.

Yes, but before this deal we had a $5.75M guy that didn't fit anywhere in the lineup for the next 4 years.

Both sides have to be considered (the in and the out), and the question is: is the team better or worse as a result?

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Bourque's Twin

What if the Flames signed Ferland and bought out Neal?
Total cost would’ve been $3.5 + $1.916 = $5.416
Lucic is $5.25

For an extra 200K and the burden of $1.916 on the books years 5-8, the Flames could’ve had Ferland instead of Lucic.

That might have been considered until they realized Ferland is one Lucic punch in the head from retirement

[TheOnlyBilko]

Originally Posted by shogged

james neal will be better next year because you can guarantee hes getting top 6 minutes

I wouldn't say it's "Guaranteed".

[TheSquatch]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Utter misses?

Valimaki, Kylington, Andersson are all great picks.

Mangiapane, Dube look to be good picks.

Jury’s still out on Jankowski’s ceiling

Still too early to tell with guys like Pospisil, Petterson, Phillips.

Very interested to see if Parsons rebounds this year.

Oh, don't get me wrong, Valimaki, Andersson etc look great to me, and I don't have any idea about Button's role in getting those specific guys into the organization. Maybe he was crucial. Maybe what held back Tod Button's genius for years was the "win now, who needs picks?" attitude of basically the entire management staff and ownership group, going back 20 years now. But for every Valimaki, there's 10 Rico Fatas. There's Kyle Greentrees EDIT just looked and don't see him, so maybe Greg Nemisz is a better example), and ... these are the guys we REMEMBER. There's also a hugely long list of guys we'd never remember - Garret Bembridge anyone? And I get that drafting isn't ever going to be even 50%, I really do. But the flames swung and missed and missed and missed and missed for so many years, don'tcha think? When your big draft "hit" in a 5 year span is David Moss.... there's an issue.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by TheOnlyBilko

I wouldn't say it's "Guaranteed".

Yeah the Oilers moved Lucic down the roster because he couldn't keep up, according to many Oiler fans. Neal could possibly be slower than Lucic from some reports.

Given the Alberta bound trade they're going to want to make Neal work so they'll give it the college try, but if it doesn't take and he moves down their roster it will interesting to watch.

[DeluxeMoustache]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Yeah the Oilers moved Lucic down the roster because he couldn't keep up, according to many Oiler fans. Neal could possibly be slower than Lucic from some reports.

Given the Alberta bound trade they're going to want to make Neal work so they'll give it the college try, but if it doesn't take and he moves down their roster it will interesting to watch.

Right. And Lucic had 27 points in the first half of the season where he was moved down. On pace for his career norm of 50 ish

It’s a self fulfilling prophecy up there.

[TheOnlyBilko]

Originally Posted by Bingo

He called him to tell him to waive his clause and come to Calgary which makes it pretty pertinent.

But sure if he called him to tell him Stranger Things 3 was good it wouldn't have the same impact. Luckily that wasn't the case.

Ya sorry about that I didn't realize he called him before the trade to come to Calgary, I somehow missed that important tidbit (I have no idea how as I've been indulged in the trade since it happened) That is very interesting and very cool that Johnny reached out to Looch like that. I just assumed it was after the trade happened and he did it just to say "Hi welcome to Calgary" sort of a deal. Your comment did make sense in retrospect.

[TheScorpion]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Why do you want to buy out Michael Stone?

Even if he's been passed on the depth chart, give him the preseason to show the league he's suffering no ill effects from the blood clots and you can trade for something.

Or you keep him because injuries will happen and he's a good player.

No need for it, just my opinion.

It's the opposite. I'm with you. Buying out Stone would be insanely dumb.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by MisterJoji

Utter misses?

Valimaki, Kylington, Andersson are all great picks.

Mangiapane, Dube look to be good picks.

Jury’s still out on Jankowski’s ceiling

Still too early to tell with guys like Pospisil, Petterson, Phillips.

Very interested to see if Parsons rebounds this year.

The flames haven't drafted in the 2nd round in 3 straight years.

Dube Andersson kylington are all 2nd round picks.

The flames drafting 'turning around' has a lot more to do with having picks to use than it does any revolution on the scouting staff. Todd Button has been the man in Calgary for what, 20 years?

If you give the man picks, he will get you players.

When you give him 3 picks total in the first 3 rounds of the draft over 3 years, he's going to struggle to get you players.

[CanadaMatt]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Why do you want to buy out Michael Stone?

Even if he's been passed on the depth chart, give him the preseason to show the league he's suffering no ill effects from the blood clots and you can trade for something.

Or you keep him because injuries will happen and he's a good player.

No need for it, just my opinion.

I’m not sure anyone wants to buy out Michael Stone except as a last resort where we can’t get Chucky, Bennett, BSD and others into the existing salary cap...so buying out Stone would only make sense if the end goal was to accommodate these signings.

I’m not sure we are finding a trade parter for Stone until the deadline to be honest, he is very costly for a bottom pair d-man. I’d prefer to trade 50% retained before we bought him out though.

[OldSam]

Don't forget who the coach is in Greaserville. Dave - defence first - Tippett. I would think his demand for knowing where your defensive zone is will be significantly more than Peters. I am not sure The Real Deal will be up to it. This will be interesting.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Yes, but before this deal we had a $5.75M guy that didn't fit anywhere in the lineup for the next 4 years.

Both sides have to be considered (the in and the out), and the question is: is the team better or worse as a result?

Well two days ago some Flames fans said Neal was a perennial 25+ goal scorer, who had an off year due to multiple Stanley Cup runs, wrong sticks, poor linemates, historically unlucky shooting percentage and was training like a fiend in the off season to return to form.

So if that was your belief, then the out looks like more than the in.

I guess we’ll see. Not many questions around Lucic. His excuses have run out and we know what he is IMO. Like I said, this trade is just admitting defeat on the Neal signing a year into it. Time to move on.

[Jiri Hrdina]

Originally Posted by TheSquatch

Oh, don't get me wrong, Valimaki, Andersson etc look great to me, and I don't have any idea about Button's role in getting those specific guys into the organization. Maybe he was crucial. Maybe what held back Tod Button's genius for years was the "win now, who needs picks?" attitude of basically the entire management staff and ownership group, going back 20 years now. But for every Valimaki, there's 10 Rico Fatas. There's Kyle Greentrees EDIT just looked and don't see him, so maybe Greg Nemisz is a better example), and ... these are the guys we REMEMBER. There's also a hugely long list of guys we'd never remember - Garret Bembridge anyone? And I get that drafting isn't ever going to be even 50%, I really do. But the flames swung and missed and missed and missed and missed for so many years, don'tcha think? When your big draft "hit" in a 5 year span is David Moss.... there's an issue.

You’re talking about a completely different era
There has been a clear shift in approach from size and physical play to skill and upside
Since Bt took over I think the drafting has been strong
The issue has been quantity of picks

[Flame On]

Quite the thread of back and forth opinions. But also a lot of assumptions.

It seems assumed that Neal has the better chance of an upswing again. Based on what?
It seems assumed Neal could've been bought out, perhaps the owners had issue with that.

One assumption I'm prepared to accept is that it was a deal done in desperation. We don't know if things were so bleak everyone wanted him gone, maybe he wanted gone, hell maybe he was going to demand a trade soon, plummeting any ability to deal him even further.
For all that doom situation, Tre managed to pull out a player with grit and meanness, which they are desperate for, save a little cap room and not worsen the team in terms of quality. I'll take it.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Well two days ago some Flames fans said Neal was a perennial 25+ goal scorer, who had an off year due to multiple Stanley Cup runs, wrong sticks, poor linemates, historically unlucky shooting percentage and was training like a fiend in the off season to return to form.

So if that was your belief, then the out looks like more than the in.

I guess we’ll see. Not many questions around Lucic. His excuses have run out and we know what he is IMO. Like I said, this trade is just admitting defeat on the Neal signing a year into it. Time to move on.

Yes, it definitely is.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by OldSam

Don't forget who the coach is in Greaserville. Dave - defence first - Tippett. I would think his demand for knowing where your defensive zone is will be significantly more than Peters. I am not sure The Real Deal will be up to it. This will be interesting.

Neal played for Tippett in Dallas as a rookie.