[Trade] Elias Lindholm + Noah Hanifin to Flames for D. Hamilton, Micheal Ferland, & Adam Fox

[Huntingwhale]

Ferland might be one of those guys who got 'carried' by his linemates. But to his credit, he had probably the 2nd best shot on the team and himself can make skilled plays and finish. It's not like he's some schmuck who is useless otherwise.

I'm also one of those people that doesn't view a player who is carried by their linemates necessarily as a bad thing. Chemistry is by far the most important aspect of being part of a good line. Ferland didn't need to be the heavy carrier on that line. That was the other guys' job and Ferland simply needed to be in the right place at the right time and have the ability to finish his setups.

I think he's a lot better then people give him credit for. He's gotten better every single year in the league, and really that's all you can ask of a player to do as they advance through their career. The more I think about it, I'll probably end up missing him more then I miss Hamilton down the road.

[DiracSpike]

Yea Ferland was a nice player, just inconsistent. Regardless of the quality of players we got back I think the team will miss his grit and scoring this year for sure.

The reason I'm personally a fan of this trade though is that there is massive uncertainty on both Ferland and Fox. Someone is going to overpay Ferland massively in UFA next summer and Fox has all the vibes of a player who is going to play out his eligibility and incur a bidding war and play for one of the big northeastern teams. I would bet good money that neiyher plays a single game for the hurricanes in the 19-20 season and beyond. Contrast that with the high pedigree, hole-filling young players we got that are under team control for multiple years. As good as Hamilton is I'd easily trade him for that every day of the week.

[Kickazzflames]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Ferland might be one of those guys who got 'carried' by his linemates. But to his credit, he had probably the 2nd best shot on the team and himself can make skilled plays and finish. It's not like he's some schmuck who is useless otherwise.

I'm also one of those people that doesn't view a player who is carried by their linemates necessarily as a bad thing. Chemistry is by far the most important aspect of being part of a good line. Ferland didn't need to be the heavy carrier on that line. That was the other guys' job and Ferland simply needed to be in the right place at the right time and have the ability to finish his setups.

I think he's a lot better then people give him credit for. He's gotten better every single year in the league, and really that's all you can ask of a player to do as they advance through their career. The more I think about it, I'll probably end up missing him more then I miss Hamilton down the road.

I already miss Ferly, he does have a wicked shot. The scary thing is that when he was on the 3rd line there was little to no production. Sure he had some great chemistry on the first line, but when we put someone different in that top RW line spot and we have Ferly on an expensive contract doing nothing on the 2nd/3rd line... it would start to hurt.

However, I don't think he is at his ceiling yet and there is more to come from him. I wish him the best for his career and maybe we see him come back in the future.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

I agree.

I think there's more chance of Ferland getting less than 10 than more than 30.

If Ferland doesn't get premium ice time and PP time with Carolina, he could quickly become a forgotten man.

His line mates will be a downgrade, there is no reason to expect increased production.

I am not so sure about that. Personally I will be watching him as much as possible as I do find it interesting as to how he does on his new team. Carolina really wanted him in that trade according to Treliving, and Treliving really didn't want to give him up. I do think that Ferland will fill a large need in that organization, and I do think he will play top 6.


I also found Ferland to be decent on the PP. I remember two PP droughts that the Flames were on, and it was Ferland that scored on both droughts. Ferland didn't get as much PP time as I thought he deserved, however, and the majority of his points came in at EV.



Of course it is dependent on how he does with his line-mates and if he finds consistency with them, but even with lesser line-mates, the extra PP time SHOULD get Ferland back into ~20 goals. I think at some point in his career, Ferland will be a 30 goal scorer. I think his skating, IQ, and shot are all very strong. Wouldn't surprise me to see an uptick in his production with Carolina (with what I expect is more PP time). Time will tell I guess.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am not so sure about that. Personally I will be watching him as much as possible as I do find it interesting as to how he does on his new team. Carolina really wanted him in that trade according to Treliving, and Treliving really didn't want to give him up. I do think that Ferland will fill a large need in that organization, and I do think he will play top 6.


I also found Ferland to be decent on the PP. I remember two PP droughts that the Flames were on, and it was Ferland that scored on both droughts. Ferland didn't get as much PP time as I thought he deserved, however, and the majority of his points came in at EV.



Of course it is dependent on how he does with his line-mates and if he finds consistency with them, but even with lesser line-mates, the extra PP time SHOULD get Ferland back into ~20 goals. I think at some point in his career, Ferland will be a 30 goal scorer. I think his skating, IQ, and shot are all very strong. Wouldn't surprise me to see an uptick in his production with Carolina (with what I expect is more PP time). Time will tell I guess.

Hopefully you are right, it would be nice for him to succeed. And as you say, time will tell.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Kickazzflames

I already miss Ferly, he does have a wicked shot. The scary thing is that when he was on the 3rd line there was little to no production.

Last year? He hardly spent enough time there to judge.
Two years ago? He was our best bottom six forward, and his production rates BEFORE moving to the Gaudreau line were very strong for his role.


Of course, with what Ferland showed the last year-and-a-half, I'm not sure why any sane coach would put him lower than a second line role.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Ferland might be one of those guys who got 'carried' by his linemates. But to his credit, he had probably the 2nd best shot on the team and himself can make skilled plays and finish. It's not like he's some schmuck who is useless otherwise.

I'm also one of those people that doesn't view a player who is carried by their linemates necessarily as a bad thing. Chemistry is by far the most important aspect of being part of a good line. Ferland didn't need to be the heavy carrier on that line. That was the other guys' job and Ferland simply needed to be in the right place at the right time and have the ability to finish his setups.

I think he's a lot better then people give him credit for. He's gotten better every single year in the league, and really that's all you can ask of a player to do as they advance through their career. The more I think about it, I'll probably end up missing him more then I miss Hamilton down the road.

This is all true, but what frustrated me about Ferland was not just that he was very inconsistent but that his inconsistency was mostly a product of becoming complacent and lazy for large chunks of time.

Brad Treliving made very pointed comments at the end of the year that there was a culture shift coming in the form of trades this summer. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or know it all, but I immediately thought of Hamilton and Ferland when this came up, and that's exactly who got shipped out.

They were two players with lots of skill that didn't give enough, consistently. I feel Ferland specifically could be a $5mil/yr player that you want to pay, but what he'll likely end up as is a $3.5/4mil/yr player that makes you regret the money and term.

That is why I'm happy with the trade.

[Buff]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is all true, but what frustrated me about Ferland was not just that he was very inconsistent but that his inconsistency was mostly a product of becoming complacent and lazy for large chunks of time.

Brad Treliving made very pointed comments at the end of the year that there was a culture shift coming in the form of trades this summer. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or know it all, but I immediately thought of Hamilton and Ferland when this came up, and that's exactly who got shipped out.

They were two players with lots of skill that didn't give enough, consistently. I feel Ferland specifically could be a $5mil/yr player that you want to pay, but what he'll likely end up as is a $3.5/4mil/yr player that makes you regret the money and term.

That is why I'm happy with the trade.

I couldn't agree more. I certainly didn't want Hamilton to be the one to be traded but from my own perceptions he was going to be. Same for Ferland. I was hoping his lack of scoring in the 2nd half was more related to injury than anything else, but something just wasn't sitting well with me when it comes to his play for more than the 2nd half of this past season. I really like both of them but you knew Treliving was going to trade away whom he felt weren't a part of his plan, or at least those who could be traded.

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is all true, but what frustrated me about Ferland was not just that he was very inconsistent but that his inconsistency was mostly a product of becoming complacent and lazy for large chunks of time.

Brad Treliving made very pointed comments at the end of the year that there was a culture shift coming in the form of trades this summer. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or know it all, but I immediately thought of Hamilton and Ferland when this came up, and that's exactly who got shipped out.

They were two players with lots of skill that didn't give enough, consistently. I feel Ferland specifically could be a $5mil/yr player that you want to pay, but what he'll likely end up as is a $3.5/4mil/yr player that makes you regret the money and term.

That is why I'm happy with the trade.

I do not agree with this at all. I don't think complacency or laziness would keep anyone in the lineup. I find it amusing when fans, who don't have full information, jump to these conclusions.

I realize you are guessing (although you state it matter of factly) but I think the inconsistency came from confidence swings. Ferland was what a 4th or 5th rounder? Now he's playing with the top paid guys on his team against the top paid guys on opposing teams. The pressure is enormous and Ferland was expected to make plays in these circumstances.

Maybe he was complacent - I really don't know but I cringe when I read things like this because to me this is the lazy guess work fans make when they don't have the full information.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

I do not agree with this at all. I don't think complacency or laziness would keep anyone in the lineup. I find it amusing when fans, who don't have full information, jump to these conclusions.

I realize you are guessing (although you state it matter of factly) but I think the inconsistency came from confidence swings. Ferland was what a 4th or 5th rounder? Now he's playing with the top paid guys on his team against the top paid guys on opposing teams. The pressure is enormous and Ferland was expected to make plays in these circumstances.

Maybe he was complacent - I really don't know but I cringe when I read things like this because to me this is the lazy guess work fans make when they don't have the full information.

No, no definitely not guessing. It was from watching him game in and game out and focusing on his play away from the puck. I started focusing on him when I became frustrated with bad stretches and found he was often coasting away from the puck and not taking guys, along with not anticipating the play like he was more than capable of during the good stretches.

He just wasn't focused and driven far too often. Sometimes it's bad luck that keeps a player off the score sheet, Ferland was great when you could see him giving his all and then he just wouldn't play anywhere near his potential for awhile.

I don't know what to tell you, like by full information you want some sort of stat? Is watching games intently while focusing on one player not even a thing anymore? Like it doesn't count for anything in this new advanced stat era? Or you just disagree and rather than provide a rebuttal you figure you'd just counter with me being wrong and put the onus on me to offer more when you've offered nothing?

[Jeff Lebowski]

Originally Posted by jayswin

No, no definitely not guessing. It was from watching him game in and game out and focusing on his play away from the puck. I started focusing on him when I became frustrated with bad stretches and found he was often coasting away from the puck and not taking guys, along with not anticipating the play like he was more than capable of during the good stretches.

He just wasn't focused and driven far too often. Sometimes it's bad luck that keeps a player off the score sheet, Ferland was great when you could see him giving his all and then he just wouldn't play anywhere near his potential for awhile.

I don't know what to tell you, like by full information you want some sort of stat? Is watching games intently while focusing on one player not even a thing anymore? Like it doesn't count for anything in this new advanced stat era? Or you just disagree and rather than provide a rebuttal you figure you'd just counter with me being wrong and put the onus on me to offer more when you've offered nothing?

By full information I mean either being in the dressing room or know what the internal discussing of the team are.

I watched him closely too and I did not see laziness or complacency. You don't last in the lineup if you display those things or you see steady reductions in ice time and then benchings. Probably some public comments from coaches to the media as well.

I remember an interview he gave with Millions and when asked about his good play he stated confidence before Roger had even finished the question. With his poor play, I saw a guy who was not confident and struggled to get on the same page.

Quite frankly I don't trust your statement of facts that he's lazy. I think making these kind of statements tell you don't really know what you're talking about.

By watching intently does that make you a mind reader?

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am not sure I agree with the sentiment that Treliving identified him as a guy that needed to be shipped out. He said good things about Hamilton, but was not exactly enthusiastic. He seemed pained with having to including Ferland and couldn't say enough good things about him.


Given his salary, he vastly exceeded expectations, and filled a number of holes on the Flames. If he was more consistent, he would find himself making 6 million a year and untouchable. I had him as a player just outside the core group who was getting better every season, and could maybe find a bit more consistency in his game and become a core guy.

[ForeverFlameFan]

Pretty sure Treliving traded for Hamilton because he was able to receive him at such a low cost when we acquired him. Then, he had the opportunity to use him as the main piece to get us 2 RFA's that would be beneficial to the Flames in the long run. Hanifin may be a slight downgrade to Hanifin, but we did gain a solid 2-way player in Lindholm. I'm happy Treliving wasn't afraid to make a trade like this. We made our team better the minute it happened.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

By full information I mean either being in the dressing room or know what the internal discussing of the team are.

Sorry, but why is this ridiculousness a standard by which we gauge opinions now?

None of us are in the room, or will ever be in the room. So this is just silly. If we're going to dismiss things with "you're not in the room" no one should bother discussing anything.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jeff Lebowski

By full information I mean either being in the dressing room or know what the internal discussing of the team are.

I watched him closely too and I did not see laziness or complacency. You don't last in the lineup if you display those things or you see steady reductions in ice time and then benchings. Probably some public comments from coaches to the media as well.

I remember an interview he gave with Millions and when asked about his good play he stated confidence before Roger had even finished the question. With his poor play, I saw a guy who was not confident and struggled to get on the same page.

Quite frankly I don't trust your statement of facts that he's lazy. I think making these kind of statements tell you don't really know what you're talking about.

By watching intently does that make you a mind reader?

All good man, you don't have to trust anything I say. Ultimately, it's a bit of weird phenomenon in hockey discussion ever since advanced stats came in that effort level seems to be attached to a player's own mind and he's the only one that can know for sure, although I believe it has more to do with fans taking issue with a player they like being criticized.

Players of all calibers get criticized for lack of effort at times by hockey experts, I'll contest it is absolutely something you can see by watching if you choose to look for it (I saw it a lot in Brouwer as well, just random times when he could catch a guy while forchecking and then just kind of veers off) and I'll stand by seeing it in Ferland for stretches where he just wasn't skating or forechecking as hard as say the previous 10 games.


Again though, no skin off my back, you're sure of yourself, I'm sure of myself and we'll both be cheering for the same team next season!

[Itse]

I'd split this halfway. Lack of effort and focus are things you can see easily enough just by watching a player play.
Laziness and complacency are not.

Lack of confidence can just as easily lead to lack of focus and effort as laziness. Personal or family issues might also make someone lose focus.at work.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by ForeverFlameFan

Pretty sure Treliving traded for Hamilton because he was able to receive him at such a low cost when we acquired him. Then, he had the opportunity to use him as the main piece to get us 2 RFA's that would be beneficial to the Flames in the long run. Hanifin may be a slight downgrade to Hanifin, but we did gain a solid 2-way player in Lindholm. I'm happy Treliving wasn't afraid to make a trade like this. We made our team better the minute it happened.

Hamilton fit the Flames needs perfectly when he was acquired. This was a team far overachieving on their rebuild coming off a second round appearance. Gaudreau was a Calder nominee and Monahan took a huge leap between year 1 and 2. Gio and Brodie were a legit top pair but the Flames knew the Russell-Wideman pair vastly overachieved and targeted a D upgrade.

It did not surprise me the Flames acquired a lot of picks at the deadline to arm themselves with trade chips.

I believe Treliving decided to move Dougie now because he did not like the fit with the player anymore. With zero playoff wins since Dougie was acquired also signaled this Team was not as far ahead as they thought when they got Dougie 3 years ago. I also think it was a smart play to cash in on this player in a move to get a little younger as this team is still a couple of years away.

[burnitdown]

Originally Posted by jayswin

This is all true, but what frustrated me about Ferland was not just that he was very inconsistent but that his inconsistency was mostly a product of becoming complacent and lazy for large chunks of time.

Brad Treliving made very pointed comments at the end of the year that there was a culture shift coming in the form of trades this summer. I'm not trying to sound arrogant or know it all, but I immediately thought of Hamilton and Ferland when this came up, and that's exactly who got shipped out.

They were two players with lots of skill that didn't give enough, consistently. I feel Ferland specifically could be a $5mil/yr player that you want to pay, but what he'll likely end up as is a $3.5/4mil/yr player that makes you regret the money and term.

That is why I'm happy with the trade.

It's funny saying we're happy with the trade because Hamilton and Ferland were lazy and Treliving was able to shift the culture on the team with this trade. Unfortunately, at the end of the season, the Canes also said they needed a culture shift and Hanifin/Lindholm were the ones that became expendable.

So Canes fans will also be saying how they're happy with the trade as they shook things up, and now they'll have guys that want to win more.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

It's funny saying we're happy with the trade because Hamilton and Ferland were lazy and Treliving was able to shift the culture on the team with this trade. Unfortunately, at the end of the season, the Canes also said they needed a culture shift and Hanifin/Lindholm were the ones that became expendable.

So Canes fans will also be saying how they're happy with the trade as they shook things up, and now they'll have guys that want to win more.

I would bet a pretty large sum that both teams will be better next season...Hamilton will probably enjoy a non hockey market

Ferland's contract situation was a big reason for him moving though. You can't pay a guy like him big money IMO

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by burnitdown

It's funny saying we're happy with the trade because Hamilton and Ferland were lazy and Treliving was able to shift the culture on the team with this trade. Unfortunately, at the end of the season, the Canes also said they needed a culture shift and Hanifin/Lindholm were the ones that became expendable.

So Canes fans will also be saying how they're happy with the trade as they shook things up, and now they'll have guys that want to win more.

Except the primary reason they traded Lindholm was stalled contract negotiations.

And people are mostly baffled at why the Hurricanes would give up on Hanifin so quickly.