High-Profile Sexual Abuse Epidemic

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well this is timely to to the discussion...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...444897?cmp=rss

TLDR; women gets harassed at work, files complaint to boss Jason Nixon, gets fired, and she takes them to court for damages and wins. Which is kinda what I was thinking the NFL women should have done, before I was attacked for victim blaming.

Okay I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I said in just about every post about this that you probably didn't mean what your posts seemed/could be read to imply.
Do you really not understand how "You know what she should have done", can be construed as victim blaming, or at the very least the words of someone who is oblivious to the issues women face in this kind of situation.

[Fuzz]

Well who knows what evidence she had. After 3 years, you would think she would have something? We can spend all day arguing about unknowns, we aren't going to get anywhere. I think part of my point is, and I guess I have to be careful lest I get accused of being a rapist, but how would things ever change if no one came forward? 3 years is a long time to put up with someone putting his hands down your pants. I'm in no way saying it is her fault, and I understand all the things that may work against her if she came forward, but the alternative sounds pretty tough to live with.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I said in just about every post about this that you probably didn't mean what your posts seemed/could be read to imply.
Do you really not understand how "You know what she should have done", can be construed as victim blaming, or at the very least the words of someone who is oblivious to the issues women face in this kind of situation.

I'd appreciate it if you would stop responding to my posts and putting words in my mouth like this. Thanks.

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well who knows what evidence she had. After 3 years, you would think she would have something? We can spend all day arguing about unknowns, we aren't going to get anywhere. I think part of my point is, and I guess I have to be careful lest I get accused of being a rapist, but how would things ever change if no one came forward? 3 years is a long time to put up with someone putting his hands down your pants. I'm in no way saying it is her fault, and I understand all the things that may work against her if she came forward, but the alternative sounds pretty tough to live with.

Countless women in all walks of life, in all industries have come forward in the past and guess what?

Nothing changed.

They move onto another job if they are lucky enough to not be blacklisted and the same stuff happens.

Nothing changed.



That is the entire reason that here we are in 2017, 100 years after women were given the right to vote, where it should be a given that women are equal, that it should be a given you don't stuff your hands down someones pants unless given complete consent, that you don't send sex toys to co-workers, etc etc that we have the #Metoo movement. And that it is completely necessary the movement happens and happens to it's fullest.

You don't understand it because you haven't lived it. Neither have I. But as I've mentioned before I can much more easily count the number of women on my social media lists that didn't say #Metoo than the ones who did. That includes my wife and numerous close friends.

The thing is, I know in my heart that in the end we will look back at this in 15-20 years and we will say this:

Nothing changed.

It's sad. It's pessimistic.

But damnit we have to try.

[AFireInside]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really? How many female announcers and colour commentators can you name offhand? I can think of Cassie Campbell and one woman that does some of the less marquee college football games for ESPN.

EDIT: Here's a list of current TSN on-air personalities. Men vastly outnumber women.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._personalities

There are 16 sports centre anchors, 8 are women. If you want to ask why women aren't holding positions that are hosted by former players/coaches/personnel of the sport they are covering well I can't help you. Along those lines if you have a personality that's been writing about that particular sport for 10, 20 or 30 years and they are on tv, they likely deserve it for some reason. Are there a ton of women knocking on the door desperate to become a play by play or colour analysts? If there are, we have a problem. I don't think it's the case. People don't care who's doing play by play as long as they're good. Cassie Campbell just isn't that good and at this point she's the best female, at least for hockey. That's not to say she isn't getting better and won't get way better over time.

Why can't it ever just be that fewer women are interested in those positions? If 1 women for every 10 men are interested in working in any sports media position (on air personality, behind scenes editing, writing etc) then yes it should be difficult to get into that industry just as it would be for any man to get into that industry.

Do we honestly think that it's easy for men to get into this industry? It's incredibly difficult.

We don't always need to look for sexism as reason there are fewer women in an industry. Is it sexism that fewer men are nurses or could it possibly be that fewer men are interested in being a nurse.

Sometimes there's nothing to be upset about and it's just the differences between women and men.

Before you answer that men control these industries I realize that but I'm also not prepared to say that they didn't earn it. Where I work management is made up of more males than females. On the surface it looks bad but to become management there are very specific criteria. Of all management spots I've seen hired (about 10) 2 - 3 women met the criteria to about 15 men. The criteria is very basic, experience completing specific course work. That's it, it's not sexist, but it might look that way from the outside.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well who knows what evidence she had. After 3 years, you would think she would have something? We can spend all day arguing about unknowns, we aren't going to get anywhere. I think part of my point is, and I guess I have to be careful lest I get accused of being a rapist, but how would things ever change if no one came forward? 3 years is a long time to put up with someone putting his hands down your pants. I'm in no way saying it is her fault, and I understand all the things that may work against her if she came forward, but the alternative sounds pretty tough to live with.

Calm down there Fuzz.

The point is, you are looking at this completely rationally and don't seem to be giving any thought to how your remarks are the kind that make it difficult for people to come forward. Are your remarks the worst think that can happen to someone who has gone through this sort of thing? No, but they certainly make it harder for a person to come forward, and may make them think that just leaving the job is easier because coming forward isn't worth the hassle.

Questions like why did she take 3 years, and you'd think she'd have some evidence are focused solely on her. Her reasons and timing for coming forward are completely irrelevant. Then saying stuff like "If no one comes forward nothing will change" which is problematic seeing as how it comes after, and then again immediately before asking why it took her 3 years to come forward, which implies she has some culpability for not coming forward sooner.

Then you top it off on the end with saying you understand why she may have not said anything, but finish it off with a pretty big qualifier about how YOU can't imagine the alternative is much better. What you think of the alternatives is irrelevant.

As I've said too many times, I don't think you have malicious intent, I don't think you think these women are at fault. But the way you are talking about it, and the questions you are asking are exactly the kind of things that make women not want to come forward, because they are focused on their conduct, and motivations, rather than the people who did something wrong, or allowed it to happen.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Well this is timely to to the discussion...
http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmont...444897?cmp=rss

TLDR; women gets harassed at work, files complaint to boss Jason Nixon, gets fired, and she takes them to court for damages and wins. Which is kinda what I was thinking the NFL women should have done, before I was attacked for victim blaming.

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Okay I tried to give you the benefit of the doubt. I said in just about every post about this that you probably didn't mean what your posts seemed/could be read to imply.
Do you really not understand how "You know what she should have done", can be construed as victim blaming, or at the very least the words of someone who is oblivious to the issues women face in this kind of situation.

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I'd appreciate it if you would stop responding to my posts and putting words in my mouth like this. Thanks.

If by "Putting words in my mouth" you mean, "paraphrasing exactly what I said" then no, I don't think I will.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by AFireInside

There are 16 sports centre anchors, 8 are women. If you want to ask why women aren't holding positions that are hosted by former players/coaches/personnel of the sport they are covering well I can't help you. Along those lines if you have a personality that's been writing about that particular sport for 10, 20 or 30 years and they are on tv, they likely deserve it for some reason. Are there a ton of women knocking on the door desperate to become a play by play or colour analysts? If there are, we have a problem. I don't think it's the case. People don't care who's doing play by play as long as they're good. Cassie Campbell just isn't that good and at this point she's the best female, at least for hockey. That's not to say she isn't getting better and won't get way better over time.

Why can't it ever just be that fewer women are interested in those positions? If 1 women for every 10 men are interested in working in any sports media position (on air personality, behind scenes editing, writing etc) then yes it should be difficult to get into that industry just as it would be for any man to get into that industry.

Do we honestly think that it's easy for men to get into this industry? It's incredibly difficult.

We don't always need to look for sexism as reason there are fewer women in an industry. Is it sexism that fewer men are nurses or could it possibly be that fewer men are interested in being a nurse.

Sometimes there's nothing to be upset about and it's just the differences between women and men.

Before you answer that men control these industries I realize that but I'm also not prepared to say that they didn't earn it. Where I work management is made up of more males than females. On the surface it looks bad but to become management there are very specific criteria. Of all management spots I've seen hired (about 10) 2 - 3 women met the criteria to about 15 men. The criteria is very basic, experience completing specific course work. That's it, it's not sexist, but it might look that way from the outside.

Uhhh this was your original repost.

Originally Posted by AFireInside

As an aside. At least on tv and sports networks it doesn't seem like women are having a problem at all getting jobs. When I watch sportsnet or TSN it seems to me like women are actually more common than men at this point.

I was merely pointing out that your perception was inaccurate. I didn't say anything about sexism.

[Fuzz]

Then you suggest that staying in the position and accepting the sexual assault is what she should do? Tell me, what are these women supposed to do, given the situation?

[ernie]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Then you suggest that staying in the position and accepting the sexual assault is what she should do? Tell me, what are these women supposed to do, given the situation?

At the risk of making you feel like you are getting piled on this isn't really the relevant questions in my mind.

The problem is that women often DON'T KNOW what to do in these situations (and not just women...all harassed and abused people) and the support systems don't exist to help them before, during or after the decision they do make. The culture hasn't prioritized or even cared about this topic. Just look at the horrendous number of rape kits that go untested when women DO get the courage to report rape. Now imagine the lack of caring that occurs if it's "merely" being touched, harassed or degraded.

Society has not cared. Society has screamed loud and clear that we do not care you are being assaulted and harassed and if you say anything well then there are going to be serious consequences for YOU.

The question isn't what should they do. They question is what should WE as the rest of society do so that the what supposedly should they do is "obvious" and "easy" (though it will often never be obvious and easy to the abused or harassed person)? What can society do to make perpetrators pay for the damage they do?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Then you suggest that staying in the position and accepting the sexual assault is what she should do? Tell me, what are these women supposed to do, given the situation?

Again you're not really thinking of it from the perspective of someone in that position though. If you think speaking up is going to get you fired then your choices are essentially to accept the harassment or accept unemployment, poverty, etc. It's a really a no-win situation.

[Coach]

Maybe I’m missing something, but Fuzz, according to the release she DID try to do something about it and nothing ever happened. So it gets to the point of being a public expose that embarrasses the company and the people involved (including the victim).

The hope is by coming forward this way the company will act on it sooner in the appropriate manner.

It’s becoming increasingly evident that women have been trying to tell people about I.t all along and they have been getting bluntly stopped in their tracks before anything ever happens, or they are not believed, or it’s dismissed as just something they have to deal with, to the point that even women believe that’s it’s just something they have to deal with and try to ignore it and fight through it.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Then you suggest that staying in the position and accepting the sexual assault is what she should do? Tell me, what are these women supposed to do, given the situation?

Now who's putting words in someone's mouth?

No Fuzz, I wouldn't suggest they stay in the position.
The point is what you are doing, namely stating what you think these women should have done, isn't helpful, and is pretty insensitive.
I'm not suggesting what these women should have done becuase NO ONE should be suggesting what these women SHOULD have done.

Do you honestly think telling victims what they should have done is productive?
Do you honestly think that having another man tell them what they should have done is the best way to foster an environment where women feel comfortable coming forward?

A few people have already said it, but the big problem here is that too man men, including you, are focusing on what the women did or didn't do, instead of what happened to them and how we can prevent it further.

A few questions you asked/statements you made: (quoted directly, so you don't get angry about someone putting words in your mouth)

How do you put up with that for 3 years?

Shouldn't this have gone to HR on week one?

I would like to think that HR would protect the interest of the company by not having a sexual predator on staff.

TLDR; women gets harassed at work, files complaint to boss Jason Nixon, gets fired, and she takes them to court for damages and wins. Which is kinda what I was thinking the NFL women should have done,

but how would things ever change if no one came forward?

I'm in no way saying it is her fault, and I understand all the things that may work against her if she came forward, but the alternative sounds pretty tough to live with.

The only one of those statements that isn't explicitly questioning what the woman did is the last one, and it finishes with a pretty big "But". Think about that, you say it's not her fault, then you outline why you think you know better than her, does that sound like something an empathetic person would say?

Do you think you sound like the kind of person you would want to go to for help?

[Fuzz]

I had a bit of a response typed up, then I read this:

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Do you think you sound like the kind of person you would want to go to for help?

You are being extremely unreasonable and projecting me as some sort of monster. I'm not going to continue a discussion with a person who would say something like that about me, knowing what little you do. Good day, sir.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I had a bit of a response typed up, then I read this:


You are being extremely unreasonable and projecting me as some sort of monster. I'm not going to continue a discussion with a person who would say something like that about me, knowing what little you do. Good day, sir.

I'm not projecting you as a monster, I'm quoting you directly and asking you if you honestly think that is a productive and supportive way to react to someone coming forward about these type of experiences. At most I think you're being insensitive in this particular matter.

Whether you intend it or not, I don't think your responses are the kind that make people uncomfortable coming forward when they've been harassed or worse. If you'd like to explain why I'm wrong I'm all ears, but so far, all you've tried to do is justify your initial response, which was to question the actions of the woman in the article.
Does that make you a bad person? Not necessarily, but I do think it means you don't really understand the issue the way you think you do.
The truth is no dude can really understand this issue as well as any woman who has gone through it, and that's why it's so important we don't focus on what the women have or haven't done, and instead focus on how it was allowed to happen to them, and what we can do to make sure it doesn't happen again.
And finally, the easiest thing we can do is to make sure that those to whom it does happen feel comfortable coming forward, and part of that is making sure the first thing they hear isn't "Why didn't you do X?".

There are 3 pretty easy things guys can do to help fix this issue:
1) Don't harass women
2) Say/do something when you see something happening
3) Foster an environment where women feel comfortable coming forward

I don't think you're a bad person, and I would bet a lot of money that you would 100% of the time do the first 2 things on that list. I just think you need a little bit of work on #3.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

You are being extremely unreasonable and projecting me as some sort of monster.

You are a slow learner, Winston.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

There are 3 pretty easy things guys can do to help fix this issue:
1) Don't harass women
2) Say/do something when you see something happening
3) Foster an environment where women feel comfortable coming forward

I don't think you're a bad person, and I would bet a lot of money that you would 100% of the time do the first 2 things on that list. I just think you need a little bit of work on #3.

I still don't think it is unreasonable to question why it was that she didn't come forward. You can't get to #2 and #3 without that. And we can't even discuss it without getting called insensitive. I get the feeling a lot of guys might like to understand more, but when I feel like I'm walking on eggshells even mentioning it, how can we foster a discussion around it? So if your point is to crap on people who may be looking for understanding around it, and why it worked well in one case(that I provided) I don't think you should be beating me over the head with my questions.

Would I ever ask that directly of someone who was abused? Of course not. but it seemed a good jumping off point to know what could possible compel someone to put up with that much abuse for 3 years. Hell, you said it yourself, you wouldn't stay in the position. So why did she? What was different in the Jason Nixon case? I'd love to see more of those come to light because it tells the abuser they won't get away with it, and the abused that coming forward doesn't mean getting ignored.

[taco.vidal]

Jose Canseco let his view points be known on some of this today.

Jose Canseco
✔
@JoseCanseco
What is going on with all these politicians molesting women I've been molested by several women and never complained

2:59 PM - Dec 12, 2017

Jose Canseco
✔
@JoseCanseco
Well I mean I've been beaten by women taken advantage of by women and molested by women I never complain but it was kind of a turn-on

3:02 PM - Dec 12, 2017

Jose Canseco
✔
@JoseCanseco
I see the difference I guess cuz I was a good-looking guy and these politicians look like a bag of boogers

3:04 PM - Dec 12, 2017

Jose Canseco
✔
@JoseCanseco
These women complaining against sexual misconduct are just racist against ugly men

3:20 PM - Dec 12, 2017

Jose Canseco
✔
@JoseCanseco
Why is everyone so worried about what I am saying I'm just a simple guy trying to pay my bills worry about who's running our country

4:42 PM - Dec 12, 2017

[ernie]

These are the basic choices a woman has:

1) stay in the job so they can continue to pay rent, put food on the table, build a resume to get something better etc

2) find another job in their chosen profession and HOPE the same stuff doesn’t happen. The last couple of months should suggest that hope is just that...hope.

3) exit the job pool

4) report the perpetrator said and risk getting their name drawn through the mud, black balled in the industry etc. It’s worth remembering that many people live and work in small communities that it’s easy to get branded as a “trouble maker” making it difficult to find work again.

In the end we’d of course want 4 to be chosen and without any personal consequence to the victim. There is, quite frankly, no guarantee of that in today’s world.

So what SHOULD a woman do? Whatever she damn well sees fit to do.

What we need to do is create a society where option 4 is easy for people to chose. You get to 4 by supporting the women that do come forward. Creating an environment where others feel emboldened to do so. Creating an environment where 4 isn’t scary because the victim knows there will not be reprisals personally or professionally. YOU DO NOT PRESSURE VICTIMS TO COME FORWARD.

[Wormius]

I still find it troubling that this all seems to happen in a bubble, that there is nobody outside the realm of control the perpetrators have that can speak truth to power. Is everybody just a complete sycophant or are the perpetrators so sly that nobody but the victim knows anything?