[News] Pens hire Dubas as PoHO

[Ped]

The media has been awfully kind to Dubas recently, none more cringe-inducing than this article in the Athletic today, which includes the following gems:

Their front office needs a jolt of positive energy, someone who isn’t afraid to take chances, someone with youthful vision. Some organization. A true leader. Dubas may be only 37, but by many accounts, he’s just the leader they need. He brings all of those attributes to the table.

Dubas is so thoughtful and so likable. It seems he was born to run a hockey team, and yet, he gets mocked and questioned. More than anything, it comes down to jealousy. When Crosby skates into Philadelphia, he’s booed with such passion that, if you didn’t know any better, you’d have thought he had committed crimes against humanity. It turns out, he’s just one of the best ever, so the city on the other side of the Commonwealth hates him.

Dubas isn’t on Crosby’s level in his field, but on some level, there’s a parallel. Dubas was in the middle of a civil war in Toronto, but his detractors don’t have any real ammunition, other than shouting about how he didn’t win the Cup.
What a crime to have committed.
And now, Crosby and Dubas will merge their powers, one in the late stages of his career, the other presumably in the beginning. They see the game in similar ways. I bet they’ll work very well together. In the end, they were both supposed to be Penguins and, finally, they are.
Something feels very right about it.

[Bandwagon Surfer]

So what was the problem with Dubas in Toronto? As someone who goes out of their way to ignore the Toronto media, I have not paid attention to the the details of what happened there. But superficially looking at where the teams are, Toronto has a really strong team who has just had their best playoff performance in a while, finally managing to beat the lighting, and lost only to a hot team now playing in the finals. Compared to the situation Calgary is in, they look so much better off. Even compared to last year's Flames, their team and playoff performance seems better.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by bluejays

To me Pittsburgh is beyond repair until one of the big two agree to a trade to recoup assets or the organization tanks. Little chance otherwise. Crosby is good enough to carry you to the middle of the league but it’s hockey and carrying a team is difficult.

Disagree with your points on goaltending and defence. The defence was terrible when he first came in. Now it’s among the deepest in the league. Goaltending has never been consistent but it’s never ever been bad under him. In fact Anderson was great until injury questions arose. Campbell came from nowhere to do very very good. When he demanded more they realized it wasn’t a core player and cut him loose. Last season Samsonov was largely very very good. Save a few teams in the league with legit star starters a lot of teams are looking for that elusive goaltender and Toronto did alright.

Deepest in the league? It is mediocre, maybe deep in mediocrity but nowhere near one of the top groups in the league.

Campbell has shown his whole career that despite moments of good play he can't be relied on. Anderson was a decent move but it didn't work out, he wasn't able to give them the level of goaltending they needed. Samosonov again not good enough. At some point when the results aren't there the GM has to take some responsibility and with Dubas the results weren't good enough.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Ped

The media has been awfully kind to Dubas recently, none more cringe-inducing than this article in the Athletic today, which includes the following gems:

Those quotes are embarrassing.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Spurs

Deepest in the league? It is mediocre, maybe deep in mediocrity but nowhere near one of the top groups in the league.

Campbell has shown his whole career that despite moments of good play he can't be relied on. Anderson was a decent move but it didn't work out, he wasn't able to give them the level of goaltending they needed. Samosonov again not good enough. At some point when the results aren't there the GM has to take some responsibility and with Dubas the results weren't good enough.

He has to take responsibility, but none of those goaltenders were bad with the Leafs. They actually were all reclamation projects who exceeded their expectations.


Regarding defence, they essentially started with Reilly. Almost nothing else when he was first with the team. The "problem" with their defence is defenceman 3-7 were more or less interchangeable. One wasn't that much better than the other but #7 was never bad. Gio is more or less their #7. How many teams would like to have that? They just didn't have the upper end talent. What was their downfall ultimately was their best players didn't compete hard enough. Doesn't mean they aren't close to moving over that hump. I didn't like how Dubas handled himself towards the end, but he was a good GM in many ways. Trying to keep a young core together is tough and admirable.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by bluejays

He has to take responsibility, but none of those goaltenders were bad with the Leafs. They actually were all reclamation projects who exceeded their expectations.


Regarding defence, they essentially started with Reilly. Almost nothing else when he was first with the team. The "problem" with their defence is defenceman 3-7 were more or less interchangeable. One wasn't that much better than the other but #7 was never bad. Gio is more or less their #7. How many teams would like to have that? They just didn't have the upper end talent. What was their downfall ultimately was their best players didn't compete hard enough. Doesn't mean they aren't close to moving over that hump. I didn't like how Dubas handled himself towards the end, but he was a good GM in many ways. Trying to keep a young core together is tough and admirable.

Campbell was not a reclamation project. He was a really good looking backup that looked to be a good starter. Sort of like Turek.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Ped

Don't think Crosby will ever ask to go anywhere - he has his Cups. And one of the problems with Hextall is he wanted to move on from Malkin and Letang last summer - iirc it took a while to sign Malkin and there was some speculation he might go elsewhere.



The owners want those three there, and if Dubas isn't even the GM by the Fall, then it's not on him.

Hextall was put in a brutal position. The owners cut his legs out from under him when they told him to keep the gang together. While he didn’t make great moves to try to win around that core, he was never given the option to move any of them out and re-tool like anyone with brains knew had to be done.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Campbell was not a reclamation project. He was a really good looking backup that looked to be a good starter. Sort of like Turek.

Correct. But to get him for a 2nd and develop him into a starter by putting their stock in him was ultimately a steal. He did very very well under them. He's really sucked after he left.

[GullFoss]

Didn't Dubas say the job was hard on his family, and if not in. Toronto, he wouldn't be anywhere else.

You can take anything these front office types say at face value.

[Ped]

Originally Posted by GullFoss

Didn't Dubas say the job was hard on his family, and if not in. Toronto, he wouldn't be anywhere else.

You can take anything these front office types say at face value.

But is there any job in the NHL with quite so much pressure as GM in Toronto?

[Bleeding Red]

Originally Posted by Ped

But is there any job in the NHL with quite so much pressure as GM in Toronto?

Montreal maybe.

The french thing takes it to a whole different level.

[Spurs]

Originally Posted by Ped

But is there any job in the NHL with quite so much pressure as GM in Toronto?

Is there much pressure in Toronto?

Dubas just failed in his job as GM building a team that got out of the First Round once in his 8 (?) seasons as GM and is now being compared to Sidney Crosby and mentioned as a guy clearly made to run a hockey team.

That is a pretty great fallout for a guy that did at best a mediocre job.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hextall was put in a brutal position. The owners cut his legs out from under him when they told him to keep the gang together. While he didn’t make great moves to try to win around that core, he was never given the option to move any of them out and re-tool like anyone with brains knew had to be done.

While Hextall made some bad moves there is an article on the athletic that details the issues within the organization under new ownership. When he was hired his vision was to tear it down and rebuild which is why it took so long to get Malkin signed because Hextall wanted to move on. Fenway Sports Group initially agreed with until they started to understand the market and how important Crosby and Malkin's legacy was and they then did a 180 and told him he had to keep the core together. It was a mess from the very beginning. This is a good read as there were many levels of discontent in the building and while Hextall comes off as fully deserving of his firing, there were other issues.

https://theathletic.com/4542179/2023...layoff-streak/

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon Surfer

So what was the problem with Dubas in Toronto? As someone who goes out of their way to ignore the Toronto media, I have not paid attention to the the details of what happened there. But superficially looking at where the teams are, Toronto has a really strong team who has just had their best playoff performance in a while, finally managing to beat the lighting, and lost only to a hot team now playing in the finals. Compared to the situation Calgary is in, they look so much better off. Even compared to last year's Flames, their team and playoff performance seems better.

Pretty similar to Treliving in Calgary in that he couldn't get his team over the hump in the playoffs. It appears he was also a little too chummy with the players and the belief is that he would never be able to make the difficult moves and cut loose one or two of the core 4 or the head coach. Also similar to Calgary there was a bit of a power struggle within the organization with Shanahan and Dubas not seeing eye to eye on some things. I don't think he did a bad job but he was handed a fantastic roster of young talent and could only lead them to regular season success. His big moves like Muzzin and Tavares didn't work out either. When a team is in a cup window like the Leafs you hate to see it wasted with no playoff success. I don't know if Treliving will do any better but I think he will have less issues when it comes to moving out a big name player or firing a head coach. I also think he will focus more on building a better defense that's hard to play against as Dubas was more focuses on offensive skill than grit (according to Leafs fans anyway).

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

While Hextall made some bad moves there is an article on the athletic that details the issues within the organization under new ownership. When he was hired his vision was to tear it down and rebuild which is why it took so long to get Malkin signed because Hextall wanted to move on. Fenway Sports Group initially agreed with until they started to understand the market and how important Crosby and Malkin's legacy was and they then did a 180 and told him he had to keep the core together. It was a mess from the very beginning. This is a good read as there were many levels of discontent in the building and while Hextall comes off as fully deserving of his firing, there were other issues.

https://theathletic.com/4542179/2023...layoff-streak/

Burke was on a radio show the other day and alluded to ownership hitting out at him publicly, further saying he'll hold his thoughts in and not make certain things public about what conversations took place behind closed doors.


I thought it was an interestingly written piece, but it was clearly meant to frame Hextall and Burke as bad guys. They were corporate mouthpieces brought in for a purpose. I'm shocked that Hextall didn't have a vision of some sort written down as any business ownership group would demand that but anyway, I thought it was completely one sided. It could have been written the opposite way as well that Sullivan was power struggling with Management.


I fully agree with previous ownership that they should have traded Malkin and moved on from Letang. Crosby and Malkin are icons there but they really can't win with no assets to recoup pieces.

[CliffFletcher]

You have three declining stars in their mid-30s signed to big contracts.

Most of your supporting players are also in their 30s.

You just missed the playoffs.

You have the 29th ranked prospect pool in the NHL.

You have no young talent on the roster realistically poised to make the jump to being difference-makers.

You don’t have a 2nd or 3rd round pick in the coming draft.

Ownership won’t let you trade any of your big three stars.

And your mandate is to win the Cup.

Good luck!

[Goriders]

This offseason has been like musical chairs in the league’s management level.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You have three declining stars in their mid-30s signed to big contracts.

Most of your supporting players are also in their 30s.

You just missed the playoffs.

You have the 29th ranked prospect pool in the NHL.

You have no young talent on the roster realistically poised to make the jump to being difference-makers.

You don’t have a 2nd or 3rd round pick in the coming draft.

Ownership won’t let you trade any of your big three stars.

And your mandate is to win the Cup.

Good luck!

Yup. He can only go up from here but honestly, he probably sold them on a nice speech. His press conference he painted his family as saintly, "my wife said they're good people and it's a good city, you should meet with them at least". Sure, sure. No matter how bad this team is, given the mandate to win is with three old guys (next to impossible at this stage without a younger force), Kyle will come out looking like roses. He'll always be able to pull out that he was handcuffed to win now. I personally think he's waiting his time until at least one retires and they can do an official tank to build through the draft. That's just my guess. Now that he's President he has a longer runway for success. Or if the Pens are bad enough this year he can sell to ownership the need to deal Zucker and whatever else scraps they have for picks. Really that should be done now though.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You have three declining stars in their mid-30s signed to big contracts.

Most of your supporting players are also in their 30s.

You just missed the playoffs.

You have the 29th ranked prospect pool in the NHL.

You have no young talent on the roster realistically poised to make the jump to being difference-makers.

You don’t have a 2nd or 3rd round pick in the coming draft.

Ownership won’t let you trade any of your big three stars.

And your mandate is to win the Cup.

Good luck!

Highly unlikely they reach the summit again, but I actually think it's a pretty good situation for a GM who wants a decade of runway. Everyone involved knows that a rebuild is inevitable at some point, and I wouldn't expect a ton of blame/shame for any short-term failures.

They are pretty well positioned to sell pieces in any of the next 3 seasons if they are out of it early (though IMO that kind of asset mgmt is overblown in terms of setting up a next rebuild). They've also got decent cap space to go big on some UFAs on shorter deals with an escape hatch for those guys to chase cups at the end (though Kane, Tarasenko, and ROR already have cups)

[DoubleK]

7 year contract? Jesus Fenway