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Old 03-14-2023, 11:00 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
Nah- there's absolutely an effort problem, and there has been for the majority of the season. It's simply an issue of watching them how hard they work and literally move their limbs. Expectations are pretty low if one cannot see an effort problem.
So my expectations are pretty low if I don't see it like you see it? Yeah ok ...

That's three very open minded statements!

I'll just say disagree then.
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Old 03-14-2023, 11:03 AM   #162
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Your analysis efforts are low if you’re summing up the problems with “lack of effort”. It’s like the stupidest thing a fan can say as a take on a game.
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Old 03-14-2023, 11:14 AM   #163
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Disagree. It’s not too difficult to watch a hockey game and comment on effort. Ultimately the problem is that when you rely on quantitative measurements for everything like stats, advanced stats, etc., they cannot speak to overall effort which is qualitative and very eye testy. That’s why it’s to each individual to determine whether or not they think any given effort is satisfactory. Also why it’s completely fine if Bingo thinks the effort is satisfactory and I don’t, we just have different opinions on it.

In regard to the Flames, these are professional athletes. The effort for example that Kadri put forth in the first 10 -15 games is not equivalent to the effort he put forth since then. I think there’s the human element of discovering what your team is and how good they are and then knowing in your heart and mind what they’re capable of- especially him because he just won a championship and knows what it takes. Yet, that doesn’t excuse the often lacklustre focus, perimeter shots, frequent floating around and refusal to play with that edge he started the season with.

You can go through every player and critique effort to some degree at any time. At no time will effort always be 100%, 100% of the time because that’s humanly impossible. But on the whole and in the big picture you can think back over the season and find many games where the effort was actually poor to average. In fact, in almost all the games they played bottom tier opponents they tended to drop their level of play to such opponents. I qualify that is an effort issue.

You don’t set NHL records for outshooting opponents and futility in scoring when effort is not an issue. Sorry, but scoring requires generally going to hard areas, crashing the net and getting the puck to the middle of the ice.

You know what’s actually “lazy analysis”, saying “well it’s just bad luck”.
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Old 03-14-2023, 11:17 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
Disagree. It’s not too difficult to watch a hockey game and comment on effort. Ultimately the problem is that when you rely on quantitative measurements for everything like stats, advanced stats, etc., they cannot speak to overall effort which is qualitative and very eye testy. That’s why it’s to each individual to determine whether or not they think any given effort is satisfactory. Also why it’s completely fine if Bingo thinks the effort is satisfactory and I don’t, we just have different opinions on it.

In regard to the Flames, these are professional athletes. The effort for example that Kadri put forth in the first 10 -15 games is not equivalent to the effort he put forth since then. I think there’s the human element of discovering what your team is and how good they are and then knowing in your heart and mind what they’re capable of- especially him because he just won a championship and knows what it takes. Yet, that doesn’t excuse the often lacklustre focus, perimeter shots, frequent floating around and refusal to play with that edge he started the season with.

You can go through every player and critique effort to some degree at any time. At no time will effort always be 100%, 100% of the time because that’s humanly impossible. But on the whole and in the big picture you can think back over the season and find many games where the effort was actually poor to average. In fact, in almost all the games they played bottom tier opponents they tended to drop their level of play to such opponents. I qualify that is an effort issue.

You don’t set NHL records for outshooting opponents and futility in scoring when effort is not an issue. Sorry, but scoring requires generally going to hard areas, crashing the net and getting the puck to the middle of the ice.

You know what’s actually “lazy analysis”, saying “well it’s just bad luck”.
The difference? I'm not telling you you're wrong, or that it's simple or easy to see etc.

It's not easy to be a top 5-6 team in almost every shot metric / scoring chance breakdown with a lack of effort. I mean to me, that doesn't even make sense.
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Old 03-14-2023, 11:20 AM   #165
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Shot metric it is for sure. The quality of chance is the opinion of some statistician at each rink and let’s be honest, are not going to be perfect.

Shots though? It doesn’t take effort to gain the zone and lob a softy from the side at the crest. Personally I’d argue it’s a lazy play.
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Old 03-14-2023, 01:30 PM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee View Post
Shot metric it is for sure. The quality of chance is the opinion of some statistician at each rink and let’s be honest, are not going to be perfect.

Shots though? It doesn’t take effort to gain the zone and lob a softy from the side at the crest. Personally I’d argue it’s a lazy play.
Quality of chance is a count done by two different websites, not arena staff at all.

So no clear bias applied whatsoever.

Shots are now video reviewed as well for statistical accuracy; it's why you see counts going up and down on the screen all game.

It's a lazy play if a) there was a better option b) the player isn't at the end of their shift
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Old 03-16-2023, 04:42 AM   #167
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Postgame links
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/hockey/nhl...h-12-1.6776642
https://www.espn.com/nhl/recap/_/gameId/401459644
https://www.sportsnet.ca/hockey/nhl/games/2466696
https://stats.cbc.ca/hockey/nhl/recap/146810
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MOD EDIT: Removed broken image link.
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