Ring Road To Nowhere

[Slava]

I still think they should cut casino access until a deal is reached. I would do this by installing lights at the intersection, and having a 10 minute green going north/south. Put a "no turn on red" sign and it's done. There is access for emergencies and all of that, but frustrating access for would-be gamblers.

Otherwise we see a $65M expansion and hopes that "we're getting close". It's our only real leverage though.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Slava

I still think they should cut casino access until a deal is reached. I would do this by installing lights at the intersection, and having a 10 minute green going north/south. Put a "no turn on red" sign and it's done. There is access for emergencies and all of that, but frustrating access for would-be gamblers.

Otherwise we see a $65M expansion and hopes that "we're getting close". It's our only real leverage though.

Because we are entirely sure that is was tribe that was negotiating in bad faith?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Addick

Because we are entirely sure that is was tribe that was negotiating in bad faith?

No, and actually I don't think that they were. The last deal involved land that the provincial government couldn't definitively secure, so I wouldn't be all pumped about that one either.

Its just that the city has one leverage point in this; access to the casino. There really is nothing else and if you want to force a deal to get done (where the city will not consider the 37 street/Lakeview option), then you have to use these leverage points.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Addick

Because we are entirely sure that is was tribe that was negotiating in bad faith?

If we wanted to negotiate unfairly we could threaten them with a lot.

Toll them.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Slava

Its just that the city has one leverage point in this; access to the casino. There really is nothing else and if you want to force a deal to get done (where the city will not consider the 37 street/Lakeview option), then you have to use these leverage points.

So instead of offering them what they believe to be a fair deal we should begin to turn the screw?

[Slava]

Originally Posted by Addick

So instead of offering them what they believe to be a fair deal we should begin to turn the screw?

We should offer a fair deal, and use the leverage we have. That's what good negotiation entails. We're facing the same thing here: they are negotiating and know that we really need their land to make this ring road work. Obviously they are negotiating and pressing the fact that we need to make this deal to make that ring road plan work.

The difference between you and I here is that I consider it business. Negotiating hard and making sure that you use all of the leverage you have in a situation isn't personal and it doesn't mean that you don't like the other party. Its just using what you have to your advantage in the situation.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Addick

So instead of offering them what they believe to be a fair deal we should begin to turn the screw?

Yes, actually.

"We'll offer you X"
"No"
"Ok, X + Y"
"No"
" Ok, X + Y + Z"
At this point, you start to realize saying no is getting you more. So you keep saying no.

The longer we let this idiocy drag out, the higher the price on "fair" becomes. And that is simply a fact of life rather than merely a reflection only on this specific negotiation. We've wasted decades on this nonsense. Cut bait already.

[Addick]

Originally Posted by Slava

The difference between you and I here is that I consider it business. Negotiating hard and making sure that you use all of the leverage you have in a situation isn't personal and it doesn't mean that you don't like the other party. Its just using what you have to your advantage in the situation.

I understand that, as well as, the fact that there will be other negotiations that will need to completed in the future. Our actions in these negotiations will affect the actions of the people sitting on the other side of the table in the future.

[Jimmy Stang]

Unfortunately, the city used up most of its leverage when it built right to the edge of the reserve without leaving enough room for a viable alternative. The casino entrance is really the city's only bargaining chip (aside from the piles of money and land that the province is negotiating with).

That being said, I don't think that the recent talks have been in bad faith at all. I think that they were completely correct in asking for some clarifications and guarantees. I think that blockading the casino entrance would be detrimental to everyone involved right now, and it would nullify a promising negotiation.

The important thing to remember is that they don't have to negotiate at all. It isn't the Tsuu Tina's obligation to correct the provincial/civic planning mistakes of past decades. It is in their best interest to negotiate, obviously, but well within their rights to let everyone else come up with a solution without them.

[polak]

Is there a law that prevents us sticking a toll on all of the reserve access points in the city?

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Yes, actually.

"We'll offer you X"
"No"
"Ok, X + Y"
"No"
" Ok, X + Y + Z"
At this point, you start to realize saying no is getting you more. So you keep saying no.

The longer we let this idiocy drag out, the higher the price on "fair" becomes. And that is simply a fact of life rather than merely a reflection only on this specific negotiation. We've wasted decades on this nonsense. Cut bait already.

Don't forget that the latest offer from the province consisted of "X, and maybe Y if we can, and perhaps some of Z. Maybe."

So I'll buy your house, include some cash, and the rest of the stuff we'll work out when and if we can figure it out, sometime in the future, perhaps. Deal? What? No deal? The audacity of "you people"!

We're closer now than ever. I want to see the ring road as much as the next guy, but when you're this close to a deal, turning the screw isn't going help at all. They'll walk away, wait for people to pressure their local officials to reopen negotiations, at which time everything starts from the ground up but at a higher price because the need for the land will be greater than ever.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by polak

Is there a law that prevents us sticking a toll on all of the reserve access points in the city?

From what I understand, the city must provide access to the city from the reserve at Anderson Road. I don't know whether or not it would be legally possible to put a toll in, but it really wouldn't generate much revenue I'd imagine, and we'd still have no ring road.

[Bunk]

Most of you are missing the fact that this is primarily a negotiation between the Nation and the Province, not the Nation and the City.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

From what I understand, the city must provide access to the city from the reserve at Anderson Road. I don't know whether or not it would be legally possible to put a toll in, but it really wouldn't generate much revenue I'd imagine, and we'd still have no ring road.

I was just thinking in terms of leverage.
"Won't let us upgrade our roads? Well you'll pay to use the upgrades we've made" type deal

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Most of you are missing the fact that this is primarily a negotiation between the Nation and the Province, not the Nation and the City.

Very true, but the city and its citizens have the most to gain and lose from the negotiations, and the city has publicly backed the route through the Tsuu Tina. But you're quite right - the province will be signing the cheques.

Keep in mind that I actually think we're quite close, and that I think that we are fortunate to still have the Nation's route as an option. There are no viable alternatives.

[Northendzone]

by the time this is worked out we will be flying in hoover cars.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Jimmy Stang

Don't forget that the latest offer from the province consisted of "X, and maybe Y if we can, and perhaps some of Z. Maybe."

So I'll buy your house, include some cash, and the rest of the stuff we'll work out when and if we can figure it out, sometime in the future, perhaps. Deal? What? No deal? The audacity of "you people"!

We're closer now than ever. I want to see the ring road as much as the next guy, but when you're this close to a deal, turning the screw isn't going help at all. They'll walk away, wait for people to pressure their local officials to reopen negotiations, at which time everything starts from the ground up but at a higher price because the need for the land will be greater than ever.

Actually, it was "A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y and Z. There may be a slight technicality with Z right now, but we'll work around that in the unlikely event there are problems."

They're going to walk away anyway. They have for decades. And like the idiots we are, we'll just keep sweetening the pot. We're long past the point where we should have given up on this farce. Cut through the Weaselhead and be done with it. It was man made, and man can remake it elsewhere.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by polak

I was just thinking in terms of leverage.
"Won't let us upgrade our roads? Well you'll pay to use the upgrades we've made" type deal

I'm sure that there would be all sorts of legal and ethical implications. Denying access or restricting/monetizing access from one jurisdiction to another opens a whole can of worms that I don't have the legal or constitutional knowledge to even speculate on.

I have heard that, as a last resort, the city would legally only have to provide access at Anderson Road. That would negatively impact the Nation's development aspirations near Glenmore and 37th. But I maintain that that's no way to treat a neighbour that has something that you really want and need, and they're under no obligation to sell. Hardball will pretty much end it all, or set us back 10 more years and Albertans will pay out of the nose even more.

[Madman]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

by the time this is worked out we will be flying in hoover cars.

[Jimmy Stang]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Actually, it was "A, B, C, D, E, F, G, H, I, K, L, M, N, O, P, Q, R, S, T, U, V, W, X, Y and Z. There may be a slight technicality with Z right now, but we'll work around that in the unlikely event there are problems."

They're going to walk away anyway. They have for decades. And like the idiots we are, we'll just keep sweetening the pot. We're long past the point where we should have given up on this farce. Cut through the Weaselhead and be done with it. It was man made, and man can remake it elsewhere.

I honestly don't think that they'll walk away, but we obviously disagree. All parties have suggested that a deal is close. It is in their best interest to accept as I don't think that the road won't wait much longer for them. Past negotiations have been when the ring road was a pipe dream of the distant future. This time the road is 1/2 way around, and soon to be 3/4. The time is now.

The problem with the Weaselhead option is that it isn't as easy as building a bridge. It would require massive property acquisitions along Glenmore and 37th so that the road could turn the corner while maintaining freeway speed. While it may be an alternative, it really isn't a viable alternative. Especially when you have a party that is willing to negotiate. It clearly makes financial sense to keep pushing for the route through the Tsuu Tina land otherwise the province would have walked away and started buying up and bulldozing chunks of Glamorgan and Lakeview.

The only easy solution has long passed: leave a proper corridor on land that the city and/or province actually owns. The next best alternative is negotiating with the Tsuu Tina. They have every right to demand whatever they want, and the province has every right to walk away when it becomes easier and cheaper to do it elsewhere. That's negotiation, and the leverage is with the Nation.