CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Does the amount of Moxies and Senor Frogs around Jobbing.com Arena justify the hundreds of million in taxpayer money?

I'm sure Glendale would rather have that area be a field.

Close libraries and public pools to keep funding the arena construction and operation, but in exchange you get a Margaritaville. Totally worth it.

Then have the Coyotes talk about moving to an arena somewhere else in the Phoenix area anyway. Talk about a rip-roaring success.

[Hakan and the Loobs]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

I have been to Phoenix during a non game night for Diamondbacks or Suns (Both DT arenas are next door to each other). What I do remember was the area around the baseball stadium was a ghost town when the game wasn't on.

We did end up dining at Nobuo nearby, but I wouldn't say the area was bumping by any stretch. It was easy to get a reso, and the area felt quite deserted. Again, may have been an off night. The place just felt uninviting except for that little oasis a few blocks away.

You know where was bumping? Scottsdale, Tempe near ASU, basically anywhere not downtown and they have two stadiums.

Maybe my story is not accurate but Phoenix always holds up as why spending money on a downtown stadium may not be a catalyst everyone expects.

Jury is still out on Edmonton and Detroit BTW, those places aren't even up and running yet. Give it 5 years and see if the place ends up being a ghost town after high rent and inconstant patronage cause places to pack up and move out.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Well, Glendale isn't a downtown location, so it doesn't apply to that discussion.

However, it is undeniable that there is a tremendous amount of development around it (that almost certainly wouldn't be there without the arena and stadiums' presence).

Only the hockey team is in Glendale. The baseball and basketball teams play in downtown Phoenix.

I lived in Phoenix for a year and on non-game nights downtown is pretty dead. The city is very similar to Calgary in that there is a lot of urban sprawl and their transit system isn't the best.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Zarley

You are a very irrational person to debate with. Instead of admitting your ignorance on the issue, you choose to deflect with some silly comparison to Syrian refugees?

If you would've read the page I've linked, you would have learned that the well in question is across the river on Westmount Road, suggesting seepage across the river, which has concerned AB Enrvironment to the point that they have ordered further monitoring of the problem.

The Syrian comment was tongue in cheek but the logic is the same. No one cares about the creosote until the arena comes up. Now its the most dangerous thing in our city; despite the fact that the health hazards are largely insignificant.


I read that, but it doesn't suggest a direct correlation with seepage continuing across the river. The way the monitoring wells are situated, there is no way they can infer the increased creosote around one well is directly caused by cross-river seepage or from the existing creosote contamination of the northern bank of the bow from the 80's-90's.

Of course, this is concerning and the Government is right to continue to monitor the situation as this may help determine the cause.

Obviously we will know more about the issue when the report is released, and if it notes that seepage is still present, then i will surely take that as a fact; but you cannot make the same inference from the information on the website.

Unless you work for AEP or Golder, I will assume your ignorance on this issue is in line with mine, so comments like that are uncalled for.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Are you guys all reading the same newspapers?

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2015/0...eap-headlines/

I'm really beginning to smell a City of Calgary plant. 376 post and about 25 of them have been on anything but the arena project, and of those 25 they include Uber in Calgary, Calgary restaurants and possible expansion. Not a single post on anything to do with games, players, or Flames related subjects other than the arena. Just the same stuff and website.

[PaperBagger'14]

Originally Posted by Hakan and the Loobs

Only the hockey team is in Glendale. The baseball and basketball teams play in downtown Phoenix.

I lived in Phoenix for a year and on non-game nights downtown is pretty dead. The city is very similar to Calgary in that there is a lot of urban sprawl and their transit system isn't the best.

Well there's also the cardinals stadium that is literally right beside jobing.com arena.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cappy

One of the 30 wells has reported higher concentration. It is not stated that this was caused by more seepage from across the river.

Also, the site states that no health effects are present.

I didn't realize so many people on this site were such massive proponents of the creosote clean-up until the CalgaryNEXT announcement.

It's a similar argument to the ones proposed that we shouldn't accept Syrian refugees because we have so many homeless people

Even if we said there weren't any seepage yet for the sake of argument, it still makes no sense to delay. There is no win in delaying.

And yes, people did care prior to this debate. Brutal argument.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

I'm really beginning to smell a City of Calgary plant. 376 post and about 25 of them have been on anything but the arena project, and of those 25 they include Uber in Calgary, Calgary restaurants and possible expansion. Not a single post on anything to do with games, players, or Flames related subjects other than the arena. Just the same stuff and website.

HA! only a matter of time until my opposition to the Arena turned into a comment about me either working for the City or not watching the Flames.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Does the amount of Moxies and Senor Frogs around Jobbing.com Arena justify the hundreds of million in taxpayer money?

I'm sure Glendale would rather have that area be a field.

So you do now agree there is development? Trying to dismiss it all as a Senior Frogs is another brutal non-argument.

There are hundreds of condos there now. Lots of residential and commercial taxpayers. But that doesn't count I guess, if we dismiss it all by labelling it with a restaurant name we don't like.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

So you do now agree there is development? Trying to dismiss it all as a Senior Frogs is another brutal non-argument.

There are hundreds of condos there now. Lots of residential and commercial taxpayers. But that doesn't count I guess, if we dismiss it all by labelling it with a restaurant name we don't like.

I never said there wasn't development. I said an arena is not the best use of funds to get that development started. Add in the substitution effect and other economic indicators, and the idea is even less persuasive.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Close libraries and public pools to keep funding the arena construction and operation, but in exchange you get a Margaritaville. Totally worth it.

Then have the Coyotes talk about moving to an arena somewhere else in the Phoenix area anyway. Talk about a rip-roaring success.

Glendale's mismanagement doesn't change the basic arguments. It is possible to develop WV AND not close libraries.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Cappy

HA! only a matter of time until my opposition to the Arena turned into a comment about me either working for the City or not watching the Flames.

Well, this is a hockey forum. Why would you register for a hockey forum and then not talk about hockey? And then be fixated on one thread? You could do a better job of not standing out like a sore thumb.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Even if we said there weren't any seepage yet for the sake of argument, it still makes no sense to delay. There is no win in delaying.

And yes, people did care prior to this debate. Brutal argument.

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

There are a lot of reasons to delay, they've been listed here, you just aren't taking them seriously.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by New Era

Well, this is a hockey forum. Why would you register for a hockey forum and then not talk about hockey? And then be fixated on one thread? You could do a better job of not standing out like a sore thumb.

I have interests outside of hockey. This site covers many of them: food, politics, etc.

Most of my hockey conversations are with close friends and in person. I prefer not to chat about how much i like Johnny on the computer.

Just because I don't post on most other topics doesn't mean I don't read them.

Obviously I am passionate about this topic. There's no denying that. I enjoy public policy discussions and this is a big one for the city. The fact that i do not like the proposal is also evident. From the funding to the location to the idea of having combined venues.

I feel like too many people are buying into over-used and debunked arguments and want to make sure people are atleast seeing the other side of the coin.

Do I play devils advocate a bit too much? sure do!

But my passion on this project in no way lends to the assertion that I am a city plant or am some non-fan.

If you really want to know what I do, DM me and I can send you my office address. you can come over and have a look.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by nik-

$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

There are a lot of reasons to delay, they've been listed here, you just aren't taking them seriously.

lol, okay so disagreeing with you is not taking them seriously. Got it.

The costs continue to go up. This should have been taken care of 30 years ago. Ignoring the problem only makes it worse. And cost more $$$$$$$$$$$$.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

lol, okay so disagreeing with you is not taking them seriously. Got it.

The costs continue to go up. This should have been taken care of 30 years ago. Ignoring the problem only makes it worse. And cost more $$$$$$$$$$$$.

No, not taking it seriously is just thinking we can do everything that should be done all at the same time. Because apparently as a city we're just sitting on Scrooge McDuck piles of cash we just need to spend.

We have no idea what the costs are going to be because we have no idea just how bad the contamination is. We have an urban re-development under progress that's not filled out and would be hindered if we opened up a ton more land for development. Since the city allocated tax based funds to implement this development, they want to ensure the value is recovered from it as much as possible before opening up new land.

Regardless your "brutal argument" comment earlier, a microscopic percentage of people were talking about creosete cleanup before the Flames magnanimously declared they would revitalize the area for a small handout that's probably going to exceed a billion dollars.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by Cappy

The Syrian comment was tongue in cheek but the logic is the same. No one cares about the creosote until the arena comes up. Now its the most dangerous thing in our city; despite the fact that the health hazards are largely insignificant.

I read that, but it doesn't suggest a direct correlation with seepage continuing across the river. The way the monitoring wells are situated, there is no way they can infer the increased creosote around one well is directly caused by cross-river seepage or from the existing creosote contamination of the northern bank of the bow from the 80's-90's.

Of course, this is concerning and the Government is right to continue to monitor the situation as this may help determine the cause.

Obviously we will know more about the issue when the report is released, and if it notes that seepage is still present, then i will surely take that as a fact; but you cannot make the same inference from the information on the website.

Unless you work for AEP or Golder, I will assume your ignorance on this issue is in line with mine, so comments like that are uncalled for.

I'm sorry but you are wrong again. All of this information is publicly available on the site I linked. There was a test in 2010 of 30 wells in the Westmount area, north of the river. There was a subsequent test in 2013, where well MW10-6 near Westmount Road displayed an increase in contamination levels above those established in 2010 and at levels hazardous to human health. Contamination was found to be consistent with creosote originating the Canada Creosote site across the river.

Not that I expect you to read it, but here is the report from Golder discussing what I've outlined above.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by nik-

No, not taking it seriously is just thinking we can do everything that should be done all at the same time. Because apparently as a city we're just sitting on Scrooge McDuck piles of cash we just need to spend.

not what I said

We have no idea what the costs are going to be because we have no idea just how bad the contamination is.

because no one has dealt with it

We have an urban re-development under progress that's not filled out and would be hindered if we opened up a ton more land for development. Since the city allocated tax based funds to implement this development, they want to ensure the value is recovered from it as much as possible before opening up new land.

Calgary is a big city with more than one area being developed at a time - forgive me for not swallowing everything City Hall tries to feed me.

Regardless your "brutal argument" comment earlier, a microscopic percentage of people were talking about creosete cleanup before the Flames magnanimously declared they would revitalize the area for a small handout that's probably going to exceed a billion dollars.

Neither of us have any data on how many people care about this. But I know that it is something I have heard about and talked about for as long as I have lived here.

And it is irrelevant at the end of the day. Cleaning it up is good for the city. Having a catalyst that can initiate government action - not just civic - can only be a good thing.

Making up numbers ("exceed a billion dollars") does not facilitate useful discussion.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

not what I said


because no one has dealt with it


Calgary is a big city with more than one area being developed at a time - forgive me for not swallowing everything City Hall tries to feed me.



Neither of us have any data on how many people care about this. But I know that it is something I have heard about and talked about for as long as I have lived here.

And it is irrelevant at the end of the day. Cleaning it up is good for the city. Having a catalyst that can initiate government action - not just civic - can only be a good thing.

Making up numbers ("exceed a billion dollars") does not facilitate useful discussion.

What other large section of downtown land has been opened up for redevelopment since EV came online?

Obviously cleaning it up is good, no one is really saying it isn't. What people are arguing against is the timing and reasons.

[Flash Walken]

If the Flames were serious about this project they would have included the city during the planning of all relevant stages.

The fact they sent council a letter 10 years after the fact is all you need to know about how half-cocked this proposal is.

Who knew we had so many environmentalists on this board?

If Creosote is leaking across the river, who cares if the WV is developed or not, it sounds like we need to raise our taxes to fix that creosote.

Right guys?

Right?

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by nik-

What other large section of downtown land has been opened up for redevelopment since EV came online?

Obviously cleaning it up is good, no one is really saying it isn't. What people are arguing against is the timing and reasons.

Assuming that our economy gets out of the toilet and based on absorption patterns from the 2011-2014 development cycle, East Village will be nearing buildout in 2022, which allows for development in the WV to begin in 4 years or so.