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Old 03-13-2023, 09:02 PM   #1241
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I think you are attributing game Joel traits to TV Joel which leads to the different assessment of the mora character of Joel.
It’s the same character in the same story. They hit almost all the same beats and every major plot point. The arcs of both main characters is exactly the same.

I think what’s actually happened is that people who played the game are less prone to a complete misfire when it comes to understanding the development of the characters, like you’ve done here, because there are even more details that affirm the development.

The point of Joel’s arc doesn’t have anything to do with him learning to be less selfish or less of a murderer (don’t know how much you followed the show, but “killing people” doesn’t really appear to be a rare trait among survivors).

Regardless of the read, saying that Joel doesn’t really love Ellie is probably the worst take I’ve ever heard on the story, and it’s been around for a decade. He very obviously does. The entire point of his arc is him re-learning to do exactly that. And when faced with the choice of losing his daughter a second time, he makes the same choice he would have made the first time and saves her, because she’s his entire world at that point and a reminder of what it feels like to live for someone else.

They’ve been living through this world for 20 years, and to choose between continuing to live through it with someone you love like your own child or letting them die (again) on the off chance it could eventually lead to the end of “the threat” or whatever, leaving a whole world to still be rebuild yet while raiders, rival factions, and violence continues on despite the lack of infected? I don’t know, doesn’t seem hard to imagine doing the same thing Joel did.
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Old 03-13-2023, 09:06 PM   #1242
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It’s interesting that you seem to see Joel as sympathetic relative to Marlene.
No, I'm playing Devil's advocate. You have come to concrete conclusions that I find amusing because they seem baseless to me.

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You seem to think that Joel had to kill the doctor.
Not what I said at all.

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He did not. He could have shot the doctor in the leg and stopped the surgery.
I think it's agreed that murdering people is bad, which I've already written repeatedly.

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I agree that Joel massacring all the firefly’s was restoring Ellie’s agency right up until he shoots the doctor and between the eyes and kills Marlene.

At that point Joel did the same thing that Marlene did: take away her agency while she was unconscious. Marlene in taking away her life Joel [in] forcing her to sacrifice her dream of saving the world.
This business about her "agency" is nonsense (and originally prompted my responding to you because I wondered WTF show you were watching ). Unconscious people have none. There was no potential outcome wherein he shot the doctor in the leg, convinced the Fireflies to stop the procedure, woke Ellie up, and told her the gravity of the situation and let her decide. That was not a choice they were going to have. The potential outcomes were that he let himself be escorted away and Ellie dies, he tries to stop the procedure and fails, and both he and Ellie die, or he tries and succeeds and they both live. Could he have shot the doctor in the leg? Marlene too? Yeah, he could have. He made a decision not to leave them alive, but that didn't rob Ellie of any agency. She already had no choice.

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Marlene is right when she says Ellie would have chose death and Joel agrees with her. The whole point of that scene is to make them both monsters.
"Ellie would have chosen death" is completely specious.

I will concede that the point of Joel killing Marlene and everybody else is to make him a monster.

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The game clearly is much softer on Joel, Joel has to kill the doctor to defend himself and the cure might not work. Here it’s much more cut an dry. Joel choses to kill the Doctor and Marlene over Ellie’s unconscious objection.
Again, specious; you don't know if she would have objected or not.

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As you state for Ellie to have agency she would have to be told. Joel chose not to facilitate this making him as bad as Marlene, worse actually because his motivation is selfish. I disagree that in the show this is left up to interpretation.
Well your interpretation is your interpretation, but if you don't think the conclusion is left up to one's interpretation then you're categorically wrong.

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When you watch the first episode he essentially ignores his daughters birthday,
It was HIS birthday, ya mook!

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ships her off to the neighbours, shows up late when his daughter has something special planned. Certainly not dad of the year here. If the goal was to communicate that Sarah was the most important thing to Joel it didn’t work. Perhaps again that’s different in the game.
He was a contractor, and the conversation with Tommy in the morning makes it very clear that a concrete sub flaked out on him and was putting the day's earnings at risk. He was trying to make a living; what an ###hole!

She'd obviously been to the neighbours' before, and was friendly and sociable with them; he didn't "ship her off".

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Joel is just filling the hole left by his previous failure to protect his daughter. It’s motivated out of guilt and failure.
Yes, this much is true.

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If he loved her he at a minimum doesn’t lie to her.
Ah, now here's the crux of the ending. Lying to her was undeniably a ####ty thing to do. Boy is he in trouble if Ellie ever finds out.

Last edited by timun; 03-13-2023 at 09:08 PM.
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Old 03-13-2023, 09:18 PM   #1243
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Some of this presumes that Ellie didn’t consent to be dissected. It may have been her wish, which is why she asked Joel later about whether he was telling the truth.
We know that she didn't consent because Marlene told Joel that they didn't tell her what was going to happen.

Presumably, she consented to being anesthetized for them to run some tests, but they never told her those tests would kill her, which means it wasn't informed consent.
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Old 03-13-2023, 09:43 PM   #1244
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We know that she didn't consent because Marlene told Joel that they didn't tell her what was going to happen.

Presumably, she consented to being anesthetized for them to run some tests, but they never told her those tests would kill her, which means it wasn't informed consent.
It's still not clear that that's the wrong thing to do when the entire world is at stake, not just countless lives and the quality of life that comes with no longer having to be fearful all the time, but potentially the future of the species itself, and the cost is one life.

It's totally arguable that the right thing to do is do the surgery regardless of what Ellie's wishes on the subject are. And if that's the case, it's similarly reasonable to conclude that you don't give her the chance to decide that she can't bring herself to sacrifice her own life (many couldn't, even if they believe otherwise until the decision is immediate). If you know that you're going to go through with the surgery regardless of consent, do you not just want to spare her that terror?

Different people might have different takes and there are plenty of reasonable places to stand, but there just isn't any "this is the correct answer" take to be had here.
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Old 03-13-2023, 09:55 PM   #1245
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It’s the same character in the same story. They hit almost all the same beats and every major plot point. The arcs of both main characters is exactly the same.

I think what’s actually happened is that people who played the game are less prone to a complete misfire when it comes to understanding the development of the characters, like you’ve done here, because there are even more details that affirm the development.

The point of Joel’s arc doesn’t have anything to do with him learning to be less selfish or less of a murderer (don’t know how much you followed the show, but “killing people” doesn’t really appear to be a rare trait among survivors).

Regardless of the read, saying that Joel doesn’t really love Ellie is probably the worst take I’ve ever heard on the story, and it’s been around for a decade. He very obviously does. The entire point of his arc is him re-learning to do exactly that. And when faced with the choice of losing his daughter a second time, he makes the same choice he would have made the first time and saves her, because she’s his entire world at that point and a reminder of what it feels like to live for someone else.

They’ve been living through this world for 20 years, and to choose between continuing to live through it with someone you love like your own child or letting them die (again) on the off chance it could eventually lead to the end of “the threat” or whatever, leaving a whole world to still be rebuild yet while raiders, rival factions, and violence continues on despite the lack of infected? I don’t know, doesn’t seem hard to imagine doing the same thing Joel did.
Joel, and most of the people who are alive wouldn't be around long enough to see the changes that immunity would bring on a larger scale, as moving the vaccine around a world that's highly unnavigable and full of hostile groups would be a logistical nightmare. And thats assuming that they succeed at extracting a useful sample and synthesizing the vax/antidote, which isn't exactly a slam dunk given that allegedly one guy there had the credentials to make it happen. Then there's the assumption that military QZs would willingly accept a cure from a group of people they've considered terrorists for years. It's pretty much a guarantee that they would just shoot them down. And would civilization even be able to go back to how it was given all the murder and other immoral acts people had committed over the years just to survive?

There are so many possible hitches along the way that any loving parent would be crazy to not want to fight for their child's life before trusting a rag tag group's highly idealistic proposal.
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Old 03-13-2023, 09:56 PM   #1246
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Joel’s love (If people insist on calling it that) for Ellie is a selfish love not a selfless love. He acts because he can’t lose her not because he wants what best for her or respects her ability to make the decision.

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This business about her "agency" is nonsense (and originally prompted my responding to you because I wondered WTF show you were watching ). Unconscious people have none. There was no potential outcome wherein he shot the doctor in the leg, convinced the Fireflies to stop the procedure, woke Ellie up, and told her the gravity of the situation and let her decide. That was not a choice they were going to have. The potential outcomes were that he let himself be escorted away and Ellie dies, he tries to stop the procedure and fails, and both he and Ellie die, or he tries and succeeds and they both live. Could he have shot the doctor in the leg? Marlene too? Yeah, he could have. He made a decision not to leave them alive, but that didn't rob Ellie of any agency. She already had no choice.
If he lets them live then when Ellie wakes up she could go back. That’s the decision he took away. Then when he lies about it it prevents her from looking for other firefly’s who may have information on the same research. I don’t understand how you can think that Joel didn’t take away Ellie’s choice on whether to sacrifice herself. He first preserved her choice by saving her (holding the doctor at gunpoint with the doctor saying I won’t stop) and then made the decision for her by killing the doctor and Marlene. He also specifically kills Marlene to prevent her from coming after them. He ends any possibility of Ellie making the choice on whether to sacrifice herself.
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Old 03-13-2023, 10:10 PM   #1247
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Joel’s love (If people insist on calling it that) for Ellie is a selfish love not a selfless love. He acts because he can’t lose her not because he wants what best for her or respects her ability to make the decision.



If he lets them live then when Ellie wakes up she could go back. That’s the decision he took away. Then when he lies about it it prevents her from looking for other firefly’s who may have information on the same research. I don’t understand how you can think that Joel didn’t take away Ellie’s choice on whether to sacrifice herself. He first preserved her choice by saving her (holding the doctor at gunpoint with the doctor saying I won’t stop) and then made the decision for her by killing the doctor and Marlene. He also specifically kills Marlene to prevent her from coming after them. He ends any possibility of Ellie making the choice on whether to sacrifice herself.
There was no opportunity to allow Ellie to make that choice. Wasn't exactly in the cards.

Even if he purposely shoots them in the knees, they still had weapons and probably fire back to stop him. Most were armed and if he escaped leaving key members alive they would track them later just to sedate Ellie and do the same thing.

It was either kill and walk away with Ellie or walk away without violence and let them have their way and potentially #### it up at the expense of her life, without her consent.

Unfortunately the doctor/expert put a gun on Joel, otherwise he could've perhaps extracted her without killing anybody there, but thems the breaks.
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Old 03-13-2023, 10:12 PM   #1248
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Well, the doctor picked up a scalpel. He didn't have a gun.
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Old 03-13-2023, 10:23 PM   #1249
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Well, the doctor picked up a scalpel. He didn't have a gun.
Jesus lol. Thanks. I was, lets say, highly distracted at that particular moment of the episode.

Well maybe he was very good/deadly with said scalpel. By that point Joel was probably fully in protective parent mode. Anybody standing in the way was going down. That he left the nurses at least tells you that mercy was on the table as long as there was cooperation.

I don't think he was thinking far enough ahead to contemplate who he should spare for a future revisitation of the procedure.
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Old 03-13-2023, 11:14 PM   #1250
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Spoiler!
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Old 03-13-2023, 11:16 PM   #1251
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Spoiler!
Poppycock!

Cure or not, the human race was already doomed lol.
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Old 03-13-2023, 11:19 PM   #1252
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True.

I'd say season 1 went out with a whimper sprinkled with some great moments.
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Old 03-13-2023, 11:38 PM   #1253
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When communities are full of coping addicts, pretty everybody has murdered, and there are brutal stratocracies scattered throughout the world running the remaining cities, things are probably pretty bleak for humanity, even after a vaccine.

I heard the show cut an infected run-in just prior to the hospital part. I think including that would've livened the finale a lot, and probably complemented the tenseness of the later retrieval/escape scene. Too bad it probably just didn't fit their budget.
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Old 03-13-2023, 11:49 PM   #1254
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Joel’s love (If people insist on calling it that) for Ellie is a selfish love not a selfless love. He acts because he can’t lose her not because he wants what best for her or respects her ability to make the decision.

If he lets them live then when Ellie wakes up she could go back. That’s the decision he took away. Then when he lies about it it prevents her from looking for other firefly’s who may have information on the same research. I don’t understand how you can think that Joel didn’t take away Ellie’s choice on whether to sacrifice herself. He first preserved her choice by saving her (holding the doctor at gunpoint with the doctor saying I won’t stop) and then made the decision for her by killing the doctor and Marlene. He also specifically kills Marlene to prevent her from coming after them. He ends any possibility of Ellie making the choice on whether to sacrifice herself.
To the first part, yes and no (or maybe!). He very clearly acts because he can’t lose her and because he believes living is what’s best for her instead of… you know… dying. Unless you think otherwise healthy people are better off dead for themselves.

Ellie also tells Joel that everything she did can’t be for nothing. By lying to her, he’s doing two things: trying to protect her belief that it wasn’t “for nothing” (that they tried, and did what they could, but it wasn’t meant to work out) and to ensure that everything he had just done wasn’t for nothing. What would have been the point for killing all those people, even with the doctor and Marlene spared, just to give her the choice to go right back. You criticize the character for not evolving beyond being a murderer and criticize him for his murders not being pointless enough. Funny, right?

Of course, it’s obvious that she knows he’s lying and accepts it anyway, so in a moment where she has agency and could abandon Joel, she doesn’t, and would rather agree to believe the lie than go on without Joel.

I don’t think you’re supposed to feel that Joel is without fault or if you’re even supposed to like Joel. That seems to be why the ending is so good. But I think you lose critical information by dismissing the motivations/development of the characters that is clearly laid out. I don’t know if you’ve played either game but I get the feeling you’d like the second one based on the themes it goes into a little more deeply.
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Old 03-13-2023, 11:53 PM   #1255
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It's pretty hard to justify Joel's actions but putting myself in his shoes would I attempt the same? I think so.
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Old 03-14-2023, 12:38 AM   #1256
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It's pretty hard to justify Joel's actions but putting myself in his shoes would I attempt the same? I think so.
If it came down to the world or the person I loved, I know what my choice would be 10/10 times.
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Old 03-14-2023, 01:02 AM   #1257
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The writers have said multiple times that the overarching theme of the show is that it’s about “the things love makes you do” — and that sometimes those things aren’t pretty.

We see that on multiple occasions, whether it’s the beautiful relationship in episode three, Joel taking Ellie because it was Tess’s dying wish, Ellie picking Joel to continue the journey even when Tommy was a more logical decision, Marlene ignoring the lie when Ellie’s mom died.

And then in the final episode we get Joel choosing to kill off the Fireflies to save Ellie and Ellie’s desire to turn her friend’s death into something meaningful. Love, it ain’t always pretty.

To argue Joel didn’t love Ellie is missing the creator’s point completely.
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Old 03-14-2023, 01:05 AM   #1258
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If it came down to the world or the person I loved, I know what my choice would be 10/10 times.
Not really even “the world”. Just a single doctor’s hope for a longshot cure.
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Old 03-14-2023, 02:03 AM   #1259
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It felt like a slog only if you died over and over trying to beat it. It didn't actually last all that long in the game either.
I remember it as a slog too, but I've been stuck on the Water Temple in Ocarina of Time for 25 years.
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Old 03-14-2023, 02:15 AM   #1260
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The finale was a bit underwhelming, but the series was phenomenal overall. In the beginning I thought Pascal was perfectly cast and Ramsey was a bit of a miss, but throughout the show Ramsey grew on me and by the finale I thought she was terrific as Ellie.

It was hard not to get too caught up in the location details. Episode 8 was probably my favorite cause I didn't recognize anything and could just watch. I wish I could turn off the part of my brain that points and says "hey I know that place!!"

When I think of the game, very few scenes actually stood out in my mind. I thought I remembered elements, but I was way off or just wrong about 95% of what I thought I knew.

The zoo scene blew me away when I played the game, and I think I went through it twice just to breathe it in. And I remember Ellie and Joel trotting off into the sunset on horseback... I'm not sure why they switched it to a vehicle in the show (but I mean it's a minor detail, and really, who cares?)

I thought the mall scene took place earlier in the game when Ellie was trudging through water, but upon watching the show realized I had zero recollection, and discovered there was DLC I never even played.

I will definitely play the game and watch the show again. Maybe I'll give the remastered version a whirl when it's not ridiculously priced.
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