After Vernon and Kipper, who's the third-best goalie in Flames history?

[calgaryred]

I believe Vernon gets a hard time cause of Calgary's first round losses to garbage teams over and over again after the cup run. Many thought the Flames were on the verge of a dynasty, instead played some good regular season hockey for the most part then crapped the bed when it counts. Vernon wasnt the goalie like he was in 89 those years.

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[The Professor]

Bsd

[GIODUDE]

Too young to remember Lemelin, so my vote goes to Brathwaite. I still remember that soccer goalie like save. prettyyyy prettyyyyyyy PRETTY GOOD!

[redforever]

Vernon was good and certainly was crucial in the 89 run to the Cup.

However, skill wise, he was not in the same category as Kipper. Kipper was elite, both as a Flame and as a goalie in the NHL.

In fact I think skill wise, one could argue

1. Kipper
2. none
3.none
4. none
5. Vernon
6. Lemelin
7. the rest

[GioforPM]

I remember Don Edwards pretty fondly, so I have him on the list, probably ahead of Lemelin, who was decidedly average IMO. And I have always viewed Vernon as a guy who could get really hot, but for every Stan Smyl save (and the Steamer didn't really get a lot on that shot TBF) there was an Esa Tikkanen "over the shoulder" goal. Vernon's record is amazing. But so were his teams.

I have Kipper, then a huge gap, the Vernon, then a group of Edwards, Lemelin, Turek, Ramo, Hiller.

The combo of Ramo/Hiller in 2015 was as good as any single goalie except Kipper. A complete style contrast and a really fortunate handoff of the net every time it happened.

[Otto-matic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

You’re in Klimchuk territory with Ramo here Scorp. He’s not even in the conversation.

I disagree.

Outside of probably the agreed top 3 with Kipper, Vernon, Lemelin.

Ramo was our most consistent goalie out of the horrific bargain bin bunch which isn't saying much but he atleast gave us a chance to win on most nights if the team showed up. I would rank him 4th on the bunch. Brathwaite was a close runner up for that spot.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

IMO it goes:

Kiprusoff (576 GP) - the best ever
Vernon (527 GP) - close second
Lemelin (302 GP) - consistent starter for years with playoff success
Ramo (111 GP) - average starter for three years with playoff success
Brathwaite (138 GP) - average starter for three years
Kidd (178 GP) - inconsistent starter with some good years
Turek (152 GP) - inconsistent and overpaid starter for two years
Smith (89 GP) - All-Star to well-below-average in two years
Hiller (78 GP) - above-average starter to historically bad in two years
Elliott (49 GP) - inconsistent starter for a year with no playoff success

Man, it's a really ugly list. At their Flames peak, I wouldn't want anyone after the top-3 as a starter today.

I don’t see how you have Ramo so high. Playoff success? Ramo has 2 playoff wins. Less than a whole bunch of guys including Riggin, Edwards, Kidd.

Maybe you’re looking at GAA but comparing across eras is extremely deceiving.

If you want to use solely winning a playoff series as a criteria then it’s Vernon, Kipper, Riggin/Lemelin and Ramo/Hiller. But when you’re looking at the history of the Flames you have to look deeper than playoff success.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Probably Curtis Joseph. Cujo was a good one.

Or wait did you mean players that have actually suited up for the Flanes?

[Table 5]

Originally Posted by TheScorpion

Disagree. He almost has to be, by default.

Only if you look at the cold numbers and have zero context. I know you’re a young guy and didn’t watch these guys, but to me, goalies like Turek and Brathwaite had significantly more impact on this team than Ramo.

Brathwaite was a fan favourite of this team in a really dark time, and played on some awful squads…but he had a couple years there where he was a really solid goalie. His emergence on this team during a year where the Flames went through a half a dozen goalies is also part of Flames lore.

Turek’s tenure here also wasn’t long, but he helped bring legitimacy back to a team that hadn’t had it for a very long time. Darryl Sutter and Kipper were the true game changes, but it was Turek's play as a legit #1 where as fans we started feeling like there may be some hope to this team.

[Flames Fan, Ph.D.]

Originally Posted by nfotiu

I'd have Lemelin and then Don Edwards.

Edwards had 114 games played and 3 playoff wins for the Flames, so is at least worth a mention.

Whoa... Don Edwards?

I remember him and he was absolutely brutal as a Flame. Even my 10 year-ish old self winced when he was in net. My analytic mind back then used to blame it on his super small pads.

Lemelin was ok but I remember he had confidence issues early on. But was disappointed the year he was edged out by Barrasso for the Vezina.

[Johnny Makarov]

Anyone who even types K*dd into this thread should be banned for a month!

Lemelin jut because he reinvented the goalie pad! he could never beat the damn Oilers though.

[TheScorpion]

Yeah, from what I've seen, Freddie was a fan favourite. Played a very acrobatic, fun style. Obviously can't say I every watched him.

I was looking at SV% numbers relative to the league-average in the seasons those guys played. Where the league-average in the Ramo years was in the .910s, the league-average when Kidd played was closer to .895, off the top of my head. I took that all into consideration. Ramo was close to league-average in all of us drains, something that Kidd and Turek could not say. (Freddie could.)

What I remember of Ramo is him cleaning up the mess that Hiller made in the Vancouver series. He took back the clinching Game 6 from the 3-0 deficit and won it. Then, the next year, it looked for a time like he might drag the team back to the playoffs again before he got hurt. He's the only goalie I've seen since Kiprusoff who's been able to carry the team on his back for relatively sustained periods of time.

And all I've ever heard of Turek was that he started white-hot in 2001 and then collapsed dramatically down the stretch.

[SuperMatt18]

Flames have had a pretty spotty history of goaltending - only 9 Flames goalies have ever played more than 100 games for the franchise, and only 3 have played more than 300.

Kipper - GP:576, W: 305, SV%:.913
Vernon - GP: 527, W: 262, SV%: .883
Lemelin - GP: 302, W: 136, SV%: .885

That's pretty clearly the top 3 IMO. Then after that it's pretty muddy.

Kidd - GP:178, W: 72, SV%: .898
Turek - GP: 152, W:63, SV%: .906
Brathwaite - GP: 138, W: 51, SV%: .909
Edwards - GP: 114, W: 40, SV%: .874
Wamsley - GP 111, W: 53, SV%: .878
Ramo - GP: 111, W: 49, SV%: .911

I'm personally leaning towards Turek and Brathwaite to round up the top 5.

[Erick Estrada]

I would put Hiller and even Rick Tabaracci ahead of Mike Smith. Hiller was pretty good in his first season as a Flame and won some playoff games. Tabby played behind some horrific Flames teams where he was spectacular at times and not so spectacular at other times. Smith has largely been good or really bad.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Flames Fan, Ph.D.

Whoa... Don Edwards?

I remember him and he was absolutely brutal as a Flame. Even my 10 year-ish old self winced when he was in net. My analytic mind back then used to blame it on his super small pads.

Lemelin was ok but I remember he had confidence issues early on. But was disappointed the year he was edged out by Barrasso for the Vezina.

Reggie was great.

Don Edwards though? One of the worst to ever get multiple starts as a Flame.

In fact those two played behind the same team for 3 seasons, and its crytal clear how much better Lemelin was.

Edwards 4.06 GAA .871 save% 40-49-13

Lemelin 3.53 GAA .890 save% 67-36-27

[Erick Estrada]

The 90's were a bad decade for Flames goaltending as the team drafted poorly, had no money to sign quality UFA's, and good players didn't want to play in Calgary. Look at Ken Wregget. The Flames legitimately offered him a contract to be their starting goaltender but he would rather be a Wings backup and not play in the NHL over playing for the Flames.

[4X4]

Originally Posted by Table 5

Only if you look at the cold numbers and have zero context. I know you’re a young guy and didn’t watch these guys, but to me, goalies like Turek and Brathwaite had significantly more impact on this team than Ramo.

Brathwaite was a fan favourite of this team in a really dark time, and played on some awful squads…but he had a couple years there where he was a really solid goalie. His emergence on this team during a year where the Flames went through a half a dozen goalies is also part of Flames lore.

Turek’s tenure here also wasn’t long, but he helped bring legitimacy back to a team that hadn’t had it for a very long time. Darryl Sutter and Kipper were the true game changes, but it was Turek's play as a legit #1 where as fans we started feeling like there may be some hope to this team.

IIRC, Brathwaite was the eighth goalie that year. He suited up in January or so, and we already cycled through every available goalie. Then along came Freddie with that awesome smile and he decent goaltending. Unfortunately, we still sucked.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I would put Hiller and even Rick Tabaracci ahead of Mike Smith. Hiller was pretty good in his first season as a Flame and won some playoff games. Tabby played behind some horrific Flames teams where he was spectacular at times and not so spectacular at other times. Smith has largely been good or really bad.

Tabaracci. F-n guy. All I remember about that guy was him skating the puck up to the blue line and wondering if I was high, and his general suckitude.

[EastCoastFlamesFan]

Blah, I'm still pissed off about Kidd. In theory everything was going to plan: He was given a few years to develop in SLC, along with a full year as a backup to Vernie in 93-94. Finally given the Goalie-1 designation during the 95 strike year, and had a really good regular season for a first year starter at 23 years old. Then the 95 playoffs happened. If you look at the game log from that series you'll see that CGY lost games 1 and 2 with Kidd giving up 5 goals in each. Dave King infamously sticks with TK with him only to respond with three straight wins, including a SO in game 5. Ha, history is written from there. TK lays two straight eggs in games 6 and 7 and never truly recovers. Makes you wonder how things would have turned out if CGY made a run in the 95 playoffs.

[EastCoastFlamesFan]

Also, some of you need to chill with the Vernon hate here. I feel like a lot of people are judging way too harshly on based on the era he played in. Jeez, I don't know, all he did was deliver us a Stanley Cup and saved us from a Game 7 disaster in that Vancouver series in 1989.

Look I love Kipper, but I feel like there are times where he is a bit overrated on this board. He had a few ugly seasons here. I also thought he looked pretty bad in that SJ series in '08 along with the Chicago series in '09.

[the lemming]

Third has gotta be Lemelin for me and it isn't even close. He was my idol back in the day.