Your Opinion- Ticket Sales on CP

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

Your example is a 2 year old post looking for preseason tickets against the Coyotes which got a reply in 6 minutes with an offer?

That’s not a lowball.

There are no tickets in the second level where STH cost is close to $20 - how big a loss does a STH have to take before its a lowball?

Now, I agree the market price for pre-season is well below STH cost. But if we're totally fine with market prices for games where demand is really low and the STH is taking a big loss, why wouldn't we be fine with market price for games where demand is high and the STH would be making a profit? Seems symmetrical to me.

The original purpose of the rule was to keep CP onside with the scalping laws that were in place at the time. That is long gone now...

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

There are no tickets in the second level where STH cost is close to $20 - how big a loss does a STH have to take before its a lowball?

Now, I agree the market price for pre-season is well below STH cost. But if we're totally fine with market prices for games where demand is really low and the STH is taking a big loss, why wouldn't we be fine with market price for games where demand is high and the STH would be making a profit? Seems symmetrical to me.

The original purpose of the rule was to keep CP onside with the scalping laws that were in place at the time. That is long gone now...

Yes, the laws have changed, but the ticket resale marketplace has also changed, and has now become essentially a monopoly. It's only a matter of time before that monopoly overruns the ticket subforum on CP if it can make a profit there. Seriously, read up on Julien Lavallee, he and others like him are the reason why tickets for a concert are sold out the minute they open to the public. Why give him another free hosting platform?

Remember, face value is more than the STH price. Sellers are making money, even selling at face value.

As for buyers who purchase on CP and then re-sell elsewhere, perhaps we need a hall of shame subform for posters who have done that, so potential sellers can check it before selling their tickets to someone who has done this. And don't sell to anyone who is new on the forums.

[theslymonkey]

I left this thread a few days ago and the revolving door is still spinning. It's not worth the debate. If buyers don't want a chance to buy premium tickets here on CP, then leave the system alone. Sellers wont list their tickets here because it doesn't make sense to do so. It's fine as kijiji/facebook do the same thing as here and ticket exchange does too, except the price is even higher due to fees. The sellers will get theirs either way. The only loser is the buyer not getting the chance to buy here and the community doesn't benefit from having familiarity of sellers with the ability to look over their posting history. It would be a huge benefit as a buyer to know exactly who a seller is by looking of their posting history in the forum and the buy and sell section. The idea that somehow a ST holder is going to sell for less so that a "true fan" sits in the seat is idealistic at best, money talks. The guy who pays the price can sit in the seat regardless of the jersey they choose to wear. This really isn't a debate worth having. Obviously the larger share of people here are buyers, but it's not realistic to this that controlling the buy and sell will somehow change the ticket market. If a buyer doesn't like the list price, don't buy it, simple. It's the same as Kijiji, sellers are able to list for whatever they want, no need to be offended or upset, just don't buy it if you think the price is too high or make an offer. Sellers also don't need to be offended or upset if they don't like the offer, just decline or counter. If the mods can avoid patrolling to ensure the pricing is less than face value(which is continually all over the place) and spend more time in the actual forum, I think that's a win.

[ikaris]

I think that if CP allowed higher than FV ticket sales, shouldn’t CP be entitled to a cut?

[GullFoss]

Summary: this conversation only affects tickets for high demand games where market price is above face value

Increase max price above face: more CPers get deals, but the deals arent likely as good as they were before.

Limit prices at face value: A few CPers get better deals (including potentially scalpers), but less CPers get deals in total (because some sellers sell on other sites).

[Maritime Q-Scout]

As an out of town, long time poster, I've never purchased tickets off CP. The reason being, I've been to one game at the Saddledome since joining this community, and it was before the ticket exchange (if I'm not mistaken).

With that said, this would be my first place to turn looking for tickets. I don't know, but I think I'd pay a premium for ticket here rather than Ticket Master or Stub Hub (within reason). I can't say for sure but I think I'd buy a $120 ticket here rather than a $100 equivalent seat on a ticket website or kijiji.

For me its knowing that all the proceeds goes toward the community member rather than a professional ticket re-seller who lives God knows where, and has no attachment to the team.

I also don't know this for sure, but I feel like if an out of town poster needed tickets, be it myself, Thor, Halifax Drunk, Flamesguy_SJ, or one of the countless others, community members would be more likely to ensure the out of town fan gets tickets. I could be wrong in that, but my gut tells me (which is often wrong, by the way) that if it came down to selling to random no history poster for $120 or to long time out of towner for $100, the ticket would go to the out of towner.

If my hypothesis is correct, then the market value selling of tickets is moot, as the free market would include more than just Canadian currency, but posting history or longevity.

I guess I've come off the fence and have fallen on the side of free market.

Ultamately, if the face value rule stands, and a poster has tickets to sell, they'll turn to StubHub for the premium games meaning a CPer might not get the ticket at all. If anything, fair market sales would increase the amount of tickets here and thus the amount of CPers at the game... ... ... and not posting on the site during the game ... ... ... wait, wait's our goal again

[squiggs96]

Throughout this thread, and in the other threads where this issue has been debated, several people keep stating that if you allow tickets above face value, that scalpers will invade CP and the ticket exchange will be polluted with them. Is there any evidence this will happen? Any? Has this happened on another site that used to allow face value, then changed to unlimited, and now all the scalpers are there? If so, which site is it? Further along these lines, if scalpers are posting here to make a profit, and the prices are high, it doesn't mean you have to buy them. If scalpers do post here, that means the supply of tickets is higher, which, if economics has taught me anything, should lower the price of tickets. Of all the arguments against selling above face value on CP, saying that scalpers will flood the forum is the 2nd worst. The worst reason is that it's immoral and it cuts out real fans.

My reason for allowing tickets to be sold above face value is pretty simple. Money. Here is one of my posts from September:

https://forum.calgarypuck.com/showpo...1&postcount=54

I listed 4 tickets to the Oilers game on November 17th on Ticketmaster. My price I wanted to take home was $100 per ticket, or $200 per pair. Ticketmaster listed the tickets at $112 per ticket, so ticketmaster is effectively charging me a 12% fee to list. That's fine. Ticketmaster also charges the purchaser a $24.36 per ticket charge to purchase the tickets. The final purchase price by the purchaser was $545.44. I get the $400 I was after, and Ticketmaster receives $145.44 for facilitating the transaction.

If I was able to list my tickets here, I'd still be requesting the $100 per ticket price. Buyers would be able to pay $400 for 4 tickets. They would be able to save $145.44 by purchasing them here, instead of purchasing them at Ticketmaster. I just don't get how people are against this. Sellers still get the price they are looking for; buyers get a lower price; there are more tickets available to CP members. This seems like a win-win-win.

The face value for this game is $84 + $6.25 in Ticketmaster fees. Ticketmaster fees are not allowed to be charged on CP.

If people are truly against selling above face value, which changes each game, then shouldn't they also be against selling below face value? If I'm selling a ticket on CP for $50 to a Nashville game and $100 per ticket for an Oilers game, that averages to $75 per ticket. That's below face value. There are less premium games throughout the year. I would say of the 41 home games there are 13 premium games and 28 non premium games. If I were to sell all 41 games the 13 premium games would be about $100 per ticket and the 28 non premium games would be $50 per ticket. This would mean total revenue of $2,700 per ticket for all 41 games, or $65.85 per ticket. The lowest tier game for my section (green) has a face value of $66 + 6.25 in ticketmaster fees. If I sell at the above breakdown, then I've sold for less than face value, based on the lowest tier. This is well below face value of all 41 games when you add in the 3 higher tiers.

I think it's hypocritical to only focus on, and shame, sellers for taking a premium price for premium games, but not look at how many more games get discounted. When you look at the season as a whole, it still comes in under face value, which is still an arbitrary number.

I think if you allow CP members to sell tickets over face value in round one of this year's playoffs, you'd find out pretty quickly if there was a problem or not. If it works as I believe it will, then you can continue letting CP members sell above face value. If it goes the opposite way, then you've only allowed it for a maximum of four games, and the entire debate can be put to rest. If that happens I will unequivocally state I was wrong, and I'll never bring up the topic again. I think that is a very minimal amount of risk to find out the answer.

Buyers still have to be willing to pay what the seller is offering in a free market. If the buyers don't want to pay those prices, the prices will come down. Mods can find out if there are a rash of new sign ups. In calendar 2019 there have only been 39 new sign ups at CP. Only two of those sign ups have over 20 posts since being here. The rest are likely just mmf's new accounts he's trying to get through. If all of a sudden that number jumps to 100 sign ups, and they all start listing in the ticket exchange, then there is a problem. You could also say you can't post in the ticket exchange unless you meet all the current criteria, plus have been a member since at least March 1, 2019. This way any scalpers that want in on this year can't do so. There are so many ways to quell the fears being posted about.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by squiggs96

Only two of those sign ups have over 20 posts since being here. The rest are likely just mmf's new accounts he's trying to get through. If all of a sudden that number jumps to 100 sign ups, and they all start listing in the ticket exchange, then there is a problem. You could also say you can't post in the ticket exchange unless you meet all the current criteria, plus have been a member since at least March 1, 2019. This way any scalpers that want in on this year can't do so. There are so many ways to quell the fears being posted about.

Hahaha. MMF is one of the weirdest storylines on CP. Almost every other poster who's been banned (including some that were really bad first time around) either gets let back with time and an apology or they just come back with a new account.

Meanwhile MMF doesn't try to sneak back in, instead just sending an email every so often with good intentions and willing to come back through the proper channels and gets crickets every time. One of the mods (or maybe all) must really hate him, lol.

[Sec218]

I sold 13 games on CP this season. 7 games at STH cost and 6 games below cost. I can guarantee you STHs don't make a profit on CP.

I also post on NHL Ticket Exchange, but the buyer ends up paying way more due to fees.

If I could post playoff tickets on CP and get the same return, I'd rather post them here. Win win for all of us.

[DMac]

Living in the U.K., this poll has me torn. On the one hand, I like that this forum is not filled with scalpers and other trolls trying to make a quick buck. On the other hand, living in the U.K.,it would be great for this forum to become another venue for me MAX PROFIT from whatever tickets I purchase find online for face value without having to pay those gosh darn StubHub fees....

[taxbuster]

I really like this idea...it does have the benefit of limited duration and lets people test the waters.

Originally Posted by squiggs96

I think if you allow CP members to sell tickets over face value in round one of this year's playoffs, you'd find out pretty quickly if there was a problem or not. If it works as I believe it will, then you can continue letting CP members sell above face value. If it goes the opposite way, then you've only allowed it for a maximum of four games, and the entire debate can be put to rest. If that happens I will unequivocally state I was wrong, and I'll never bring up the topic again. I think that is a very minimal amount of risk to find out the answer.

Having said that, I do seem to remember that as the '04 run continued and got serious, there were quite a few new people on CP (maybe someone with better access to numbers would know, but I can only go by recollection). They were just here to read and chat at that time.

One way or another, how bad can that be for Bingo and CP? I have to assume that more readership makes some extra cash for running the forum, and that can't be too bad a thing, eh?

Figures that the snake man would be practical.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by DMac

Living in the U.K., this poll has me torn. On the one hand, I like that this forum is not filled with scalpers and other trolls trying to make a quick buck. On the other hand, living in the U.K.,it would be great for this forum to become another venue for me MAX PROFIT from whatever tickets I purchase find online for face value without having to pay those gosh darn StubHub fees....

And also save the buyers fees

So what’s the downside ?

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by jayswin

Hahaha. MMF is one of the weirdest storylines on CP. Almost every other poster who's been banned (including some that were really bad first time around) either gets let back with time and an apology or they just come back with a new account.

Meanwhile MMF doesn't try to sneak back in, instead just sending an email every so often with good intentions and willing to come back through the proper channels and gets crickets every time. One of the mods (or maybe all) must really hate him, lol.

Hmm, one thing MMF is really good at is calling people out on their bull####. So, if CP allows free market selling on tickets, a good way to police this is to unban MMF and make him monitor the selling forum as penance. Win-win.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

I’m trying to balance this all out. Pros and cons. There appear to be some potential downsides but most of the cons are speculative.

I think the number one argument against scalping is that the current system isn’t broken. There’s plenty of volume for competitive prices, even for high demand games. Some of the secondary market options, other than CP, have enough barriers to buyers and sellers that the CP ticket exchange is already an attractive alternative, even without scalping.

One thing I’m doubtful of is CPers will pay less than elsewhere. If I’m selling a pair on ticketmaster fan exchange for $500, what incentive is there to list that pair for less on CP? Who pays the fees, how much they are and who keeps that money is largely irrelevant to the buyer’s budget. All these arguments that bring up how the market and demand should set the price but then also argue it’ll lower prices here because there’s less fees. But why would a seller sacrifice profit in place of the fees? For the good of the community? And if they’re willing to do that, aren’t they already selling on CP?

If it really is a free market, then the most logical price is $500, whether it’s CP or not, because that’s the market price that someone is willing to pay. So all we’re really doing is maximizing profit for sellers. Not that that’s necessarily a bad thing since I’d rather give my money to pretty much any person/company in the world than give it to Ticketmaster or Stubhub.

But now we’re back to my original point, if all we’re doing is keeping money out of ticketmaster’s coffers and giving that money to CP sellers, are we really helping the community? There’s no real net benefit to the community in that scenario. Making CP better for everyone should be the goal. So what problem are we solving again?

[rohara66]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

One thing I’m doubtful of is CPers will pay less than elsewhere. If I’m selling a pair on ticketmaster fan exchange for $500, what incentive is there to list that pair for less on CP? Who pays the fees, how much they are and who keeps that money is largely irrelevant to the buyer’s budget. All these arguments that bring up how the market and demand should set the price but then also argue it’ll lower prices here because there’s less fees. But why would a seller sacrifice profit in place of the fees? For the good of the community? And if they’re willing to do that, aren’t they already selling on CP?

If someone wants to receive $500 for their tickets and they're selling on ticketmaster they need to ask $650 as per the post above regarding ticketmasters outrageous fees.



If someone want to receive $500 for their tickets on here they can ask $500. Someone (other then ticketmaster) is saving $150.



Seems pretty simple to me.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

But why not ask for $650 on CP?

Why would any sane person just sell for $150 less than they could?

Seems pretty simple to me.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

But why not ask for $650 on CP?

Why would any sane person just sell for $150 less than they could?

Seems pretty simple to me.

because $650 buyer guy does not know about CP.

[theslymonkey]

Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger

But why not ask for $650 on CP?

Why would any sane person just sell for $150 less than they could?

Seems pretty simple to me.

Because a smart person would look at the market and sell for $20-50 less than comparable seats to get cash in hand. More supply drives prices down.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Originally Posted by theslymonkey

Because a smart person would look at the market and sell for $20-50 less than comparable seats to get cash in hand. More supply drives prices down.

But that logic applies to all secondary markets as well.

Supply/demand are not the same as profit margin. You guys are conflating the two.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by rohara66

If someone wants to receive $500 for their tickets and they're selling on ticketmaster they need to ask $650 as per the post above regarding ticketmasters outrageous fees.


If someone want to receive $500 for their tickets on here they can ask $500. Someone (other then ticketmaster) is saving $150.


Seems pretty simple to me.

The seller doesn't pay the fees on ticketmaster, the buyer does. So if you wanted $500 for your seats on ticketmaster than you would get $500 if they sold. If you are comparing the list price than I agree with you.