Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community
Old 09-17-2018, 07:32 AM   #1581
GordonBlue
Franchise Player
 
GordonBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Alberta
Exp:
Default

I always question people thinking you should contact those of whom you've wronged to apologize and make amends. no matter if it's for sexual violence, being a jerk, or a recovering alcoholic.

without going into detail, I've been wronged by others as everyone has.

I sure as heck have no interest in having them contact me. what purpose does it serve? i've either forgiven the person or not. moved on or not. I have no interest in making them feel better about their actions.
oh you abused me years ago and now you're sorry? screw you. never contact me again.
GordonBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to GordonBlue For This Useful Post:
Old 09-17-2018, 08:52 AM   #1582
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
Yet for some reason when it's violence committed by a man against a woman presented in the #metoo context, people see a problem. It's almost as if violence isn't as bad if it's in a sexualized context.
I haven't seen anyone suggest Ghomeshi should get his career in broadcasting back. The controversy is over whether the New York Times should have run a column by him. So should everyone charged with a violent crime - even if they're acquitted - be no-platformed from all media? How about Ansari and CK, neither of whom were charged with anything or committed violence against women, getting back on stage? What about Hardwick, who was cleared to return to work after an internal investigation?

This is the problem with treating Ghomeshi, Crosby, Weinstein, Spacey, Keillor, Ansari, CK, and Hardwick the same. Each case is different. But unlike the law, the social media mob doesn't do context or proportionality.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2018, 09:02 AM   #1583
Jiri Hrdina
Franchise Player
 
Jiri Hrdina's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
I haven't seen anyone suggest Ghomeshi should get his career in broadcasting back. The controversy is over whether the New York Times should have run a column by him. So should everyone charged with a violent crime - even if they're acquitted - be no-platformed from all media? How about Ansari and CK, neither of whom were charged with anything or committed violence against women, getting back on stage? What about Hardwick, who was cleared to return to work after an internal investigation?

This is the problem with treating Ghomeshi, Crosby, Weinstein, Spacey, Keillor, Ansari, CK, and Hardwick the same. Each case is different. But unlike the law, the social media mob doesn't do context or proportionality.
I'll share my views
- I don't necessarily mind the NYT running a column by him as I think part of the dying role of the media is to show different perspectives. In this case I also think it allows the public to see more of who he actually is, and it is ugly
- Louis CK never put a hand on someone, in a violent way, that we know of, however he did in some cases prevent someone from leaving when they wanted to? Is this violence in a strict definition? I suppose not. But if you prevent someone from leaving a room so you can perform a sexual act in front of them, it certainly is something close to it
- Hardwick had a single accuser. I don't think we know enough to say what happened when it is a singular he said/she said thing
- I'm not as faimilar with Ansari's case so I wont' offer comment

The social media mob isn't a singular entity and to describe them as such is arrogant in my view. Everyone arrives at their own views and different people spend more or less time to arrive at this views.
Jiri Hrdina is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Jiri Hrdina For This Useful Post:
Old 09-17-2018, 09:07 AM   #1584
Cecil Terwilliger
That Crazy Guy at the Bus Stop
 
Cecil Terwilliger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Springfield Penitentiary
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cole436 View Post
This essay is where I struggle with the #metoo movement.

The systemic abuse that women suffer from men needs to be brought to the surface and these abusers need to be brought to justice for their abuse and crimes.

But then what? What happens once the public has its reckoning with these people? Do they continue to live in exile and we are to believe that they will always be the person who they were in the past?

For someone like Gomeshi is it out of the question that he's learned, grown and changed in these four years? Should we just accept that the person that he was is who he always will be?

I can understand the victims not forgiving their abusers, it's completely understandable. But to not give them the chance to use (a lot of) time to become better people? I struggle with it.

Perhaps inconsequential but the author of the rebuttal you posted was not a victim of Gomeshi.

She dated him and said he was weird and demanding but said she experienced no abuse.

Like most of us, her opinion on Gomeshi comes from the accounts of the victims/accusers.
Cecil Terwilliger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-17-2018, 09:19 AM   #1585
CorsiHockeyLeague
Franchise Player
 
CorsiHockeyLeague's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
I'll share my views
- I don't necessarily mind the NYT running a column by him as I think part of the dying role of the media is to show different perspectives. In this case I also think it allows the public to see more of who he actually is, and it is ugly
- Louis CK never put a hand on someone, in a violent way, that we know of, however he did in some cases prevent someone from leaving when they wanted to? Is this violence in a strict definition? I suppose not. But if you prevent someone from leaving a room so you can perform a sexual act in front of them, it certainly is something close to it
- Hardwick had a single accuser. I don't think we know enough to say what happened when it is a singular he said/she said thing
- I'm not as faimilar with Ansari's case so I wont' offer comment

The social media mob isn't a singular entity and to describe them as such is arrogant in my view. Everyone arrives at their own views and different people spend more or less time to arrive at this views.
I know that you couched that post in saying that those were just your personal views, but that's sort of the problem, as far as I can see - everyone's deciding what consequences are appropriate based on a sort of gut intuition. For you, Hardwick having a single accuser is an important mitigating factor, and you see Louis CK's behaviour as more egregious than some others might. In that circumstance, as a matter of human psychology and group polarization effects, the more extreme voices will tend to dominate the discussion and shift others towards the poles of the debate. That's what creates the "social justice mob" phenomenon.

I think Ghomeshi's column is pretty tone deaf. It's just not realistic to expect the passage of time to come anywhere close to repairing the harm to his reputation - he could dedicate the next thirty years to charitable work, and this will still be the first line of his obituary. But given how final and severe that penalty is, and how much everyone values prestige and the way others view them, distinguishing in severity between Bill Cosby and Ghomeshi and Louis CK is enormously important... which again, no one seems to be able to do except by intuition. So there's a tension there that's never going to end well.
__________________
"The great promise of the Internet was that more information would automatically yield better decisions. The great disappointment is that more information actually yields more possibilities to confirm what you already believed anyway." - Brian Eno
CorsiHockeyLeague is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CorsiHockeyLeague For This Useful Post:
Old 09-17-2018, 09:30 AM   #1586
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jiri Hrdina View Post
The social media mob isn't a singular entity and to describe them as such is arrogant in my view. Everyone arrives at their own views and different people spend more or less time to arrive at this views.
It isn't a singular entity. But even a small amount of social media outrage can have outsized effects. When Matt Damon suggested a few months ago that each situation is different and should be treated differently, he was roasted in the media and had to issue an immediate retraction and apology. Because we don't have any way to measure outrage - we don't distinguish between the outrage of 60 per cent of people, 6 per cent of people, or 600 individuals and a B-grade celebrity on twitter - it can all have the same effect.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to CliffFletcher For This Useful Post:
Old 09-17-2018, 11:05 PM   #1587
GGG
Franchise Player
 
GGG's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CliffFletcher View Post
It isn't a singular entity. But even a small amount of social media outrage can have outsized effects. When Matt Damon suggested a few months ago that each situation is different and should be treated differently, he was roasted in the media and had to issue an immediate retraction and apology. Because we don't have any way to measure outrage - we don't distinguish between the outrage of 60 per cent of people, 6 per cent of people, or 600 individuals and a B-grade celebrity on twitter - it can all have the same effect.
Or a person who builds their career on the fickle nature of celebrity needs to abide by the rules of a fickle nature of celebrity. I’m much more concerned when a regular person like the hydro one guy who yelled FHRITP on air and got fired for it when the mod tracked down when he was employed. People who are profit off of what really is hero worship get to live with its downsides.
GGG is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to GGG For This Useful Post:
Old 09-18-2018, 03:42 AM   #1588
Tsawwassen
Franchise Player
 
Tsawwassen's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Exp:
Default

"On Monday, Argento threatened to sue McGowan over her August 27 statement urging the actress and filmmaker to "be the person you wish Harvey could have been." McGowan alleges her partner, Rain Dove, told her that Argento admitted via text messages to having sex with Bennett when he was 17 years old."

https://www.msn.com/en-ca/entertainm...id=mailsignout
__________________
Remember this, TSN stands for Toronto's Sports Network!
MOD EDIT: Removed broken image link.
Tsawwassen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2018, 07:34 AM   #1589
Erick Estrada
Franchise Player
 
Erick Estrada's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: San Fernando Valley
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by troutman View Post
Howard Stern has been doing Les Moonves puppet show reenactments all week.
I'm surprised this isn't getting more attention. Maybe because he's not as well known by most people because he's an executive and not an actor but unlike Hardwick, Louis CK, Spacey, etc his accusations are on the level of Weinstein as it's multiple women all with similar stories of being forced to perform oral sex and him, having personal assistants work with him in his own hotel suite where he would be in his underwear, etc. Total power abuser.

Last edited by Erick Estrada; 09-18-2018 at 07:37 AM.
Erick Estrada is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-18-2018, 10:22 PM   #1590
Oil Stain
Franchise Player
 
Oil Stain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yamer View Post
It was painful watching Norm MacDonald completely out of his element today on The View trying to atone for his recent comments and botched apology. The Tonight Show cancelled his planned appearance last night.

In case you're not up to speed, Norm made a statement empathizing with Louis C.K. and Roseanne, and stated he was encouraged that the Me Too movement was slowing down, referencing Chris Hardwick's situation.

He did a pretty good job apologizing on Twitter...

https://twitter.com/user/status/1039661638629187585

...but then went on Howard Stern and said "that you would have to have Down Syndrome to not feel sorry" for victims of abuse. On The View Norm said the comment was "unforgivable".

With Norm you have to wonder if he is doing it on purpose.

I only found out that he had a new show because of the media backlash over his controversial comments.

The controversial comments are better publicity than the publicity circuit he is doing.
Oil Stain is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Oil Stain For This Useful Post:
Old 09-18-2018, 11:39 PM   #1591
DeluxeMoustache
 
DeluxeMoustache's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger View Post
Perhaps inconsequential but the author of the rebuttal you posted was not a victim of Gomeshi.

She dated him and said he was weird and demanding but said she experienced no abuse.

Like most of us, her opinion on Gomeshi comes from the accounts of the victims/accusers.
Not a victim and did she say she experienced no abuse?

Is some abuse short of a beating no abuse?

Quote:
But the longer I was with him, the more he became something else. He would demand that I show him effusive public affection and get sulky if I said I was uncomfortable. He exploded at me if I changed our plans. One night, when we were kissing good-bye in his car, he pushed me up against the window so hard it hurt and wouldn’t let go until I struggled away from his hands
I read the commentary and saw her to be communicating a fair amount of corroborating or supporting information through her experience.

Seems, from reading, like her experience made the accounts plausible more so than the accounts shaping her narrative, no?
DeluxeMoustache is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 12:28 PM   #1592
Itse
Franchise Player
 
Itse's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague View Post
, distinguishing in severity between Bill Cosby and Ghomeshi and Louis CK is enormously important... which again, no one seems to be able to do except by intuition.
I don't get this.

Cosby is a serial rapist who physically forced himself on some and drugged some and raped them while they were unconscious. Literally a violent rapist. Ghomeshi is violent. Weinstein is a serial rapist.

Louis CK is an abusive creep guilty of sexual harassment, but not violent or a rapist.

Ansari is maybe a creep and somewhat abusive, but hasn't committed any (obvious) crime.

To me, these should be pretty obviously different things.
Itse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 12:43 PM   #1593
habernac
Franchise Player
 
habernac's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: sector 7G
Exp:
Default

https://twitter.com/user/status/1042467974580449281
habernac is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 01:22 PM   #1594
WhiteTiger
Franchise Player
 
WhiteTiger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse View Post
To me, these should be pretty obviously different things.
You would think so, but the online lynch mobs seem not to be able to.
WhiteTiger is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 01:33 PM   #1595
Matata
Lifetime Suspension
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
With Norm you have to wonder if he is doing it on purpose.

I only found out that he had a new show because of the media backlash over his controversial comments.

The controversial comments are better publicity than the publicity circuit he is doing.

He plays the fool but Norm is a fiercely intelligent human and he gets my vote as being the smartest person in comedy. He would have won "who wants to be a millionaire" but backed down because it was charity money and he has refined opinions on brainiac subjects like Russian literature.



He's also got the balls to make a move like that, twice he's gambled away all his money and was kicked off SNL for not backing down on the OJ jokes. Plus his signature move is telling long, pointless stories on national television.
Matata is offline   Reply With Quote
The Following User Says Thank You to Matata For This Useful Post:
KPJ
Old 09-19-2018, 02:16 PM   #1596
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

From the Guardian's story on Buruma's dismissal:

Quote:
The publication of the essay, which was hotly debated within the NYRB’s small team of editors, provoked a storm of debate about the extent to which men who had been the subject of #MeToo accusations of inappropriate or abusive sexual conduct should be allowed to rehabilitate themselves into society.
Should we treat sexual allegations and crimes different from other allegations and crimes when it comes to rehabilitation? If Ghomeshi had instead been charged and acquitted of aggravated assault for jumping out of his career and beating up a cyclist, would it be wrong for the NYT to print a column by him about it? Would there be as much outrage if they did?

The quarters where we typically hear rehabilitation and forgiveness for crime - including violent crime - promoted as civilized behaviour, we hear the opposite when it comes to sexual allegations and crimes. Why the dramatically different stances?
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-19-2018, 03:10 PM   #1597
Itse
Franchise Player
 
Itse's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Helsinki, Finland
Exp:
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhiteTiger View Post
You would think so, but the online lynch mobs seem not to be able to.
I haven't heard anyone even suggest that Cosby should be forgiven, that he's not that bad etc.

But tons of people talk question how bad what Louis CK did "really was", and it's with him that we discuss the "length of the public sentence". While some people disapprove of Louis CK still having a career, people are hating the idea of Gomesho having a voice in public at all.

So I think there is actually a pretty clear difference in the public reaction if you look at the details and not just the amount of noise.

That's not to say that painting everything with the same brush doesn't happen, it absolutely does and a lot. But I still think most people are actually able to intuitively tell the difference between different cases and it does affect their reactions.

Obviously being generally able to tell the difference oesn't make people logical or consistent in their reactions. But I think that's a different problem than not being able to tell the difference.
Itse is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2018, 09:53 AM   #1598
GordonBlue
Franchise Player
 
GordonBlue's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Location: Alberta
Exp:
Default

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada...sexual-assault

In a last-ditch attempt to stop people from calling him a rapist and worse, former University of British Columbia professor Steven Galloway is now suing the woman who first accused him of sexual assault and two UBC professors and a group of former students and others who “recklessly repeated” the woman’s allegations on social media.

n the fall of 2015, with the university saying there were serious allegations of sexual assault and sexual harassment against him, UBC suspended Galloway. He was fired in June of 2016, despite a report which effectively cleared him of wrongdoing.

Even using the lower civil standard of “on a balance of probabilities” — Former B.C. Supreme Court judge Mary Ellen Boyd said of one purported assault that she couldn’t conclude it had occurred when alleged “or at all.”

Collectively, the allegations serve as a harsh reminder that for the online mob, judicial and quasi-judicial findings, like verdicts in criminal trials, don’t count.



GordonBlue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-30-2018, 10:18 AM   #1599
CliffFletcher
Franchise Player
 
Join Date: May 2006
Exp:
Default

It's going to be interesting to see how this plays out in civil court. There are dozens of cases of American colleges being sued for their treatment of students accused of sexual assault.

We're in a strange climate where you have cases that are difficult to prosecute criminally, so they get taken up by institutions that lack proper training and processes for such serious allegations, and then civil courts get called in to exact damages. I wonder if all this legal wrangling will establish any norms around due process.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze View Post
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
CliffFletcher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2018, 11:52 AM   #1600
Nsd1
#1 Goaltender
 
Nsd1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Exp:
Default

https://twitter.com/user/status/1068730599416967168

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/am...mpression=true
Nsd1 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:54 PM.

Calgary Flames
2023-24




Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.4
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright Calgarypuck 2021