Friedman: LTIR may be addressed in next CBA

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Where were my complaints 17 years ago? I don’t know man, where were you 17 years ago?

We’re not even talking about backdiving contracts, that was already solved because… you guessed it… it was against the spirit of the rules.



Terrible, probably. They’re 8. But they do have the ability to understand concepts like “why rules exist” and “why certain rules are created” and therefore understand the “spirit” of the rules, so it’s surprising that a few of you don’t.

All I'm saying is every team does it. When they can. The Flames did it. Feaster tried to do it with ROR, as the rules weren't actually writing yet so he tried a loophole. You can't say he was dumb, he was trying to out lawyer the league. Kipper as I mentioned was done by the Flames, and eventually the rules changed. So it was within the rules, now it isn't.

Also Flames took advantage of it this year too. How else could they make any trades this year at the deadline with it out it, would be difficult.

People are mad, but it's within the rules, one day it'll maybe be changed. But right now it is what it is and is legal. Did vegas injury stone's spleen? Did they fake it? Did the fake back surgery? Is rushing him back for game 82 good for player safety? Is a playoff game 1 infinitely more important than game 82 for a clinched team? Would you come back in a game that was meaningless when you're at 80%? But if at 80% would you play in game 1 of the playoffs?

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by dino7c

If Stone comes back for game one it will be pretty hard to defend Vegas here (if they play the Oilers I am all for it) Same guy, two years in a row with a recovery that matches up exactly with game one of the playoffs to keep them cap compliant.

I doubt he is magically recovery, just more willing to play at current health in a meaningful game.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The purpose of the salary cap is to prevent a small number of rich teams from buying a competitive advantage, thereby pricing the numerous poorer teams out of the league. Acquiring players on LTIR, and then activating them once the cap is lifted, circumvents that purpose.

The purpose of LTIR is to allow teams to replace players who suffer major injuries during the season with equivalent players (if they can get them). Acquiring a player who is already on LTIR does not serve that purpose.

It's already against the rules for a team to stash a player overseas on their protected list, and then bring him back just in time for the playoffs. They used to call that the Ruotsalainen rule, after the Finnish player whom the Edmonton Oilers never brought over except for their playoff runs. Now, if you try to do that, you have to put the player on waivers before you can dress him. Acquiring a player on LTIR with the intention of activating him only in the post-season has the exact same effect. If the one kind of transaction is against the rules, they both should be.

The rules are not perfect, and unscrupulous operators will always find loopholes of one sort or another. The solution to this is to amend the rules, not to applaud the people who abuse them.

The league can't unilaterally change the LTIR rule, because an important part of that rule is written in the CBA. That doesn't mean that the rule should be allowed to stand as it is, or that abusing it in this way is right.

This acquired LTIR player, are you talking eichel? Who was acquired on ltir?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tiger

I doubt he is magically recovery, just more willing to play at current health in a meaningful game.

Then he should not have been certified medically unable to play.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Tiger

I doubt he is magically recovery, just more willing to play at current health in a meaningful game.

This is exactly the point...at that point the guy isn't hurt enough to qualify. Nearly every player in the league could go on IR. I play once a week and have nagging....everything

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tiger

This acquired LTIR player, are you talking eichel? Who was acquired on ltir?

So far, they have played variants of the same stunt with both Eichel and Hertl.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Tiger

This acquired LTIR player, are you talking eichel? Who was acquired on ltir?

Hertl is on LTIR right now
who the hell is trading for a player if there is any actual question about their ability to come back round one

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Then he should not have been certified medically unable to play.

Players play too injured in playoffs. It's probably the other way. They probably shouldn't be cleared to play.

Example

The Bruins announced on Wednesday that in addition to a broken rib, torn rib cartilage and separated shoulder that Bergeron endured in the Stanley Cup final, he also suffered a pinhole puncture in his lung. He has been in hospital recovering since the end of Monday's finale and that was news to some of his teammates.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Terrible, probably. They’re 8. But they do have the ability to understand concepts like “why rules exist” and “why certain rules are created” and therefore understand the “spirit” of the rules, so it’s surprising that a few of you don’t.

I've known a number of psychopaths in my time. They had the same inability to understand concepts of this general type.

There was one interesting exception: a young man who had been diagnosed with psychopathy, but willingly sought treatment. He had gotten involved in a small way with organized crime, and a couple of wise guys got tired of his tricks and threw him out of a moving car at highway speed. When he recovered from his injuries, he decided he had better learn to play by the rules of non-criminal society even if he could not understand the reasons for them.

Anyway, I'm not accusing anyone here of being a psychopath; just pointing out that a couple of posters are not keeping good company.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by dino7c

Hertl is on LTIR right now
who the hell is trading for a player if there is any actual question about their ability to come back round one

I didn't realize that hertl was... but also have no issue of it as it is within the rules.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I've known a number of psychopaths in my time. They had the same inability to understand concepts of this general type.

There was one interesting exception: a young man who had been diagnosed with psychopathy, but willingly sought treatment. He had gotten involved in a small way with organized crime, and a couple of wise guys got tired of his tricks and threw him out of a moving car at highway speed. When he recovered from his injuries, he decided he had better learn to play by the rules of non-criminal society even if he could not understand the reasons for them.

Anyway, I'm not accusing anyone here of being a psychopath; just pointing out that a couple of posters are not keeping good company.

So you're throwing vegas out of a moving car? Or you saying that they are " legally " breaking the rules. Or are you saying that Vegas is the non-criminal in this too because they are not breaking any rules, but are maybe breaking a social norm you imagine. Like Vegas is not stepping to the right when standing on an escalator so the walking people cannot pass. Or they stand up really quick when the plane stops so they can get ahead of three rows of people to get off the plane faster. Not breaking any rules, But some people get upset.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tiger

So you're throwing vegas out of a moving car? Or you saying that they are " legally " breaking the rules. Or are you saying that Vegas is the non-criminal in this too because they are not breaking any rules, but are maybe breaking a social norm you imagine. Like Vegas is not stepping to the right when standing on an escalator so the walking people cannot pass. Or they stand up really quick when the plane stops so they can get ahead of three rows of people to get off the planr faster. Not breaking any rules, But some people get upset.

I expected you to be completely incapable of understanding what I said. Don't worry, you were not my intended audience. Carry on.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I expected you to be completely incapable of understanding what I said. Don't worry, you were not my intended audience. Carry on.

Your counter points are amazing. I'm sold!

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

So far, they have played variants of the same stunt with both Eichel and Hertl.

Vegas was taking the risk with a surgery eichel wanted... the flames were in on that and would have done the same thing.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Au contraire, I think it's clever that they're doing it. There's no cheating about it, basic or otherwise. We have some GMs who have shown creativity and innovation within the rules of the CBA instead of Eeyore accepting the way things have always been done and banging their head into the wall waiting for someone to implement perpetual fairness, which has never existed.

Costs far more money to play single deck blackjack than infinite deck - wonder why?

I disagree, the rules have been changed to benefit several GMs at opportune moments.

First there were the compliance buyouts, because the cap didn't increase and managers didn't plan for it. Then retained salary transactions were introduced, so teams could build super teams for the playoffs. The taxi squad was pretty much meant for cap circumvention, etc.

However, the biggest comparative advantage come from not being responsible for your bad contracts, or for giving out a contract for longer than the player's career. Hossa, Seabrook Weber, Price, M. Smith, and many more were placed on LTIR, instead of retiring strictly because it is a loophole, and its cap implications. Then you get to use those contracts as currency. Trade them to a team like ARI, so they can get to the cap floor(because insurance covers it), or exchange a bad contract for someone on LTIR(T. Johnson for Seabrook). IMO once a player spends more than two full seasons on LTIR he should be considered retired.

Only then we get into the playoffs loophole. Everyone thought that Tampa would need to dismentale its powerhouse team after the first cup. The solution: plan Kucherov's surgery so that he's back to start the season; I mean playoffs. The problem is that every NHLer is playing through something, so anyone could be placed on LTIR, and a doctor won't be able to prove they're not in pain.

Right now the top team's daily cap hit is:
Toronto $99.5M(including 75% retention on Lybushkin)
Tampa $98.8M
Vegas $97.7M(including 75% retention on Hanifin, 50% on Mantha, and 17% on Hertl)
---
Cap: $83.5M
In comparison the Flames daily caphit is $80M right now.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tiger

Vegas was taking the risk with a surgery eichel wanted... the flames were in on that and would have done the same thing.

If you look at the players that the Flames were said to be offering in exchange for Eichel, the trade would not have put them over the cap.

[memphusk]

They are spending everything they have also. Who come off Vegas' books next season?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by memphusk

They are spending everything they have also. Who come off Vegas' books next season?

The biggies are Marchessault, Martinez, Mantha, and Stephenson. As things stand, they have $9.7 million in cap space next year with 15 players signed. It's going to be very difficult for them to replace those guys with equivalent players.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tiger

Your counter points are amazing. I'm sold!

I'm not countering you. I am commenting to other people about your inability to comprehend simple ideas.

[Tiger]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I'm not countering you. I am commenting to other people about your inability to comprehend simple ideas.

Very much a pot kettle black situation