MF YYC Politics - there, I mega did it

[para transit fellow]

Originally Posted by GGG

Is Godnek intentionally obtuse or does she not know how property taxes work?

No one cares what the actual mill rate is. Because taxes are tied to asset value which you don’t immediately benefit from holding a mill rate constant is not the same as holding an income tax rate constant.

It sounds like she is trying to make the argument that We arent increasing taxes we collect by 10% because property tax went up 10% and holding the mill rate constant. Instead the mill rate is just the ratio of city revenue from property tax and city budget from property tax.

Now what should be looked at is the did the city budget go up by pop growth plus inflation which is a revenue neutral budget and did the average property tax paid go up by just inflation. (Essentially the overall mix of low and higher value properties remained constant).

Every time Godnek has a quote about property taxes the less I believe she knows how they work.

Actually EVERYONE is concerned about the mill rate.

The Mill rate is the only thing thing Council can control for residents. They have no control over assessment values. They take estimated assessment value and their upcoming budget needs then work out a rate. a municipal Council never guarentees the change to your actual tax bill -- they refer to a change to the "average " homeowner

The mill rate is what people use to compare property tax of municipality A with the property tax of Municipality B.

I make budget presentations to 4 municipalities in this part of Alberta. I have noticed that when a municipality declares their is a 0% change to the proerty tax... they are generally saying there is zero percent change to the mill rate. When a municipality announces a drop in taxes, it is a change to the mill rate. a tax. And an increase generally is an increase in the mill rate.

note: Councils love when assessment values go up so they can hold the line on the mill rate and still facilitate a budget for increased services/programs.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

Actually EVERYONE is concerned about the mill rate.

The Mill rate is the only thing thing Council can control for residents. They have no control over assessment values. They take estimated assessment value and their upcoming budget needs then work out a rate. a municipal Council never guarentees the change to your actual tax bill -- they refer to a change to the "average " homeowner

The mill rate is what people use to compare property tax of municipality A with the property tax of Municipality B.

I make budget presentations to 4 municipalities in this part of Alberta. I have noticed that when a municipality declares their is a 0% change to the proerty tax... they are generally saying there is zero percent change to the mill rate. When a municipality announces a drop in taxes, it is a change to the mill rate. a tax. And an increase generally is an increase in the mill rate.

note: Councils love when assessment values go up so they can hold the line on the mill rate and still facilitate a budget for increased services/programs.

And that is misleading. If assessments were cut in half and the mileage doubled there would be no change to taxes for a homeowner. - mill rate doesn’t matter

Comparing taxes in Vancouver and Calgary Vancouver is going to have a lower mill rate because of higher average property value. This comparison is meaningless - mill rate doesn’t matter.

In the past when the media reports on tax rates they report on increase to the average tax bill - again because mill rates don’t matter. This reporting also has flaws because their needs to be an inflationary increase every year to maintain service so a 2-3% increase in tax bill is actually a 0% increase.

Council also doesn’t set the mill rate. They aren’t allowed to run a deficit so they can set what percentage of budget comes from residential and commercial property taxes, but since they don’t control assessed value or debt mill rate is is just budget / assessed value. - no one cares about mill rate.

But if the city of Calgary just has a flat mill rate this year that is a massive tax increase even post 8% inflation.

[btimbit]

Me reading tax discussion

[para transit fellow]

here is a cross canada comparison of property tax (rates).

https://www.nesto.ca/mortgage-basics...est-to-lowest/

[Krovikan]

I'm scared for my assessment next year, the mill rate could go up by 3-5% and it would be a drop in the bucket. Houses across the street went for 40% more than my assessment value this year.... While I'm sure assessment will lag, but the uncertainty in my budget really bugs me.

[The Yen Man]

Originally Posted by GGG

And that is misleading. If assessments were cut in half and the mileage doubled there would be no change to taxes for a homeowner. - mill rate doesn’t matter

Comparing taxes in Vancouver and Calgary Vancouver is going to have a lower mill rate because of higher average property value. This comparison is meaningless - mill rate doesn’t matter.

In the past when the media reports on tax rates they report on increase to the average tax bill - again because mill rates don’t matter. This reporting also has flaws because their needs to be an inflationary increase every year to maintain service so a 2-3% increase in tax bill is actually a 0% increase.

Council also doesn’t set the mill rate. They aren’t allowed to run a deficit so they can set what percentage of budget comes from residential and commercial property taxes, but since they don’t control assessed value or debt mill rate is is just budget / assessed value. - no one cares about mill rate.

But if the city of Calgary just has a flat mill rate this year that is a massive tax increase even post 8% inflation.

It's totally misleading, and I bet city council knows it. They speak to it purposely because this way, they can claim they didn't "increase taxes", it's just the market value of houses went up. Which makes absolutely no sense, because at the end of the day, property values are used to determine the amount of the pie to split to each household. The overall pie that city hall wants to collect from the city is still set by them. They then adjust mill rate x property values to get to the overall end target.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

here is a cross canada comparison of property tax (rates).

https://www.nesto.ca/mortgage-basics...est-to-lowest/

I think the rates are accurate but the calculations for the actual amounts paid on different property values don’t seem right on first glance. Admittedly I’m basing that off comparing the values of Calgary and Toronto with some quick napkin math, but what is listed doesn’t seem to be right.

[Ashartus]

Originally Posted by iggy_oi

I think the rates are accurate but the calculations for the actual amounts paid on different property values don’t seem right on first glance. Admittedly I’m basing that off comparing the values of Calgary and Toronto with some quick napkin math, but what is listed doesn’t seem to be right.

What would probably be more useful is what you would pay in taxes for an average 3 bedroom house, 2-bedroom condo, etc. Sure the taxes on a $500,000 home in Vancouver look really low, but that is probably a run down shack with no electricity or running water.

[para transit fellow]

for those interested in an aid to sleep...

Guide to Property Assessment and Taxation in Alberta, Government of Alberta. 2018

https://open.alberta.ca/dataset/bda2...in-alberta.pdf

[GGG]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

here is a cross canada comparison of property tax (rates).

https://www.nesto.ca/mortgage-basics...est-to-lowest/

Do you see how absolutely useless that chart is to compare which jurisdiction has the lowest taxes. All that table shows is that places with lower property values have higher mill rates.

It does not provide the information required for its headline.

[accord1999]

In the City of Vancouver budget, they have a pie chart showing the tax payable for a median SFH. Compared to the Calgary, there's some notable differences. Some of the water and garbage utilities are included in the property tax bill, transit funding is paid to a separate agency, and there's a regional level of government that has its own taxes.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by btimbit

Me reading tax discussion

People should be more well versed in taxes, its a major cost for most of our lives.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Locke

People should be more well versed in taxes, its a major cost for most of our lives.

Nah, there's math involved

[Bigtime]

This one straddles YYC Municipal and Provincial politics, The Sprawl does an interview with Stephen Carter. He does not hold back on some of his comments, worth a read.

https://www.sprawlcalgary.com/the-st...stephen-carter

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bigtime

This one straddles YYC Municipal and Provincial politics, The Sprawl does an interview with Stephen Carter. He does not hold back on some of his comments, worth a read.

https://www.sprawlcalgary.com/the-st...stephen-carter

Interesting article, however I cringed at "but he has helped elect the last two mayors of Calgary—both visible minorities, one the city’s first Muslim leader, the other the first woman" and almost stopped reading. Women are not a minority, they are a majority.

I know what the writer was trying to say, but deceptive (if inadvertent) verbiage is the kind of insidious distortion of concepts I especially loathe. It is functionally equivalent to the idiots who think pointing out white males are a minority means they must be oppressed.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by jammies

Interesting article, however I cringed at "but he has helped elect the last two mayors of Calgary—both visible minorities, one the city’s first Muslim leader, the other the first woman" and almost stopped reading. Women ate not a minority, they are a majority.

I know what the writer was trying to say, but deceptive (if inadvertent) verbiage is the kind of insidious distortion of concepts I especially loathe. It is functionally equivalent to the idiots who think pointing out white males are a minority means they must be oppressed.

(article author)

That's just, like, your opinion man.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by jammies

Interesting article, however I cringed at "but he has helped elect the last two mayors of Calgary—both visible minorities, one the city’s first Muslim leader, the other the first woman" and almost stopped reading. Women are not a minority, they are a majority.

I know what the writer was trying to say, but deceptive (if inadvertent) verbiage is the kind of insidious distortion of concepts I especially loathe. It is functionally equivalent to the idiots who think pointing out white males are a minority means they must be oppressed.

Ahhhh, being a woman is not what makes Jyoti Gondeck an visible minority.
Granted the sentence is a little poorly worded, but Jyoti is both a woman and a visible minority.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Ahhhh, being a woman is not what makes Jyoti Gondeck an visible minority.
Granted the sentence is a little poorly worded, but Jyoti is both a woman and a visible minority.

The sentence implies, to the reader who has no knowledge of Jyoti, that she is a visible minority because she is a woman. It is poorly worded, sure, but that's my point - the wording wasn't corrected when reviewing and editing most likely because the author thinks of women as a minority.

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by jammies

The sentence implies, to the reader who has no knowledge of Jyoti, that she is a visible minority because she is a woman. It is poorly worded, sure, but that's my point - the wording wasn't corrected when reviewing and editing most likely because the author thinks of women as a minority.

Or it could be the sentence is a list of 3 things that make the candidates unique among Calgary mayors

"both visible minorities" - this is correct they are both people of colour

"one the city’s first Muslim leader" - this is also correct, and depending on your opinion of whether or not being Muslim makes one a visible minority, is likely/at least possibly separate from that distinction

"the other the first woman" - this is also correct, and separate from her distinction as a visible minority

Looks pretty likely to me that that is a list of 3 distinct descriptions of the last 2 mayors, not one description followed by explanation of what it means for each person.

Hell, let's say he did mean Jyoti was a visible minorty because she is a woman (and not because she is actually a visible minority), in the sense of civic politics, both historically and currently, women are underrepresented which might lead some people to consider them, in terms of representation on city council, to be a visible minority.

I don't see a lot in there that is, as you call it, "Deceptive" or "insidious distortion".

But yeah, you're right, this is functionally the same as white dudes who think they are oppressed because they think they are technically a minority.

Realistically, it couldn't be further from the opposite of that, in that White men, while technically a minority, are not oppressed nor do they typically face any institutional/systematic challenges.
Women on the other hand, while technically a majority, are to some degree appressed, and do face institutional/systematic challenges.
So while it's not technically correct to refer to women as a minority, in a functional way, they often are.

[Bigtime]

My dudes, the Carter quotes. We're getting sidetracked here.

I can say whatever the hell I want to Sean Chu. I’m not in charge of him. There is no power imbalance between me and Sean Chu,” he says.

“Bullying requires a power relationship. I can’t bully f*&king Sonya Sharp. She’s a councillor.”

I’m sorry I hurt your feelings, Andre,” says Carter sarcastically. “You know, don’t defend a child molester. Try not to do that. I have no problem with what I said to Andre Chabot and his defence of Sean Chu. He wants to stand on that side, I will f*#king kill him. I’ll make sure that he never gets elected again. You stand on the side of a child molester? A rapist? Give me a break.