[CP Story] Reactionary Roster Management

[Lanny_McDonald]

Run, don't walk, away from Mike Smith. Playoffs were an aberration. Lots of goaltenders out there to kick the tires on. Trade Brodie, keep Hanafin. Kylington is a clone of Brodie and is ready to fill his error filled skates... errors and all. Until Valamaki proves he can surpass Hanafin, Noah has a spot her in Calgary. Move Frolik. Dube replaces him. Move Jankowski only if you get a player back that is an immediate improvement with four or five years of playing future ahead of him. I would be inclinded to see what type of hockey deal you could make with Brodie, Frolik and Jankowski as a package.

[Erick Estrada]

Good points. I'm of the belief it's time to move on from Smith. I don't expect him to be better another year older next season and I'm not certain Rittich is the answer so the team needs a 1A/B goaltender that is closer to league average stats than Smith's which were bottom of the league. Also there was talk on 960 that he wasn't overly thrilled about the communication with Peters so if the relationship isn't great then no point in revisiting that next season.

As for the defensemen there's lots of options and while Brodie is likely surely gone unless another defensemen is required as a piece in a big trade I would like to see another full season of Andersson and full season of Valimaki before moving out a guy like Hanafin who still may end up the best of the bunch.

In regards to the forwards, like Brodie I feel Frolik is on the way out and after that its kind of muddy as the upgrade options likely mean a core forward making $5+ million is going out the door. If a big move is made to bring in another center my money is on a trade to get Kadri or possibly signing Duchene and then shipping out either Monahan or Backlund (in the case of signing Duchene). Lots of options as a guy like Jankowski may be a good addition to any large trade as I have to imagine Ryan is going to be playing more minutes next season at his expense.

I don't think the team needs to be blow up but it's clear it's time to move on from a few players and would be fine with some tinkering or even something bigger if Treliving thinks he can improve some deficiencies.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That’s a solid read. Thanks, Bingo.

As poorly as Hanifin played in the playoffs I would be shocked to see him moved. He has been in the League for so long that it is easy to forget that he is younger than Rasmus Andersson, but moreover, this was also his first taste of the Stanley Cup playoffs. He took a step this year, and I would bet that he continues to get better.


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Yep. No way you move Hanifin this early. His upside is huge. He’s too young, we don’t know what we have in him yet.

Brodie and Stone are the only guys you look to move on the backend IMO.

[GioforPM]

Great writeup. Except Smith being in a "lesser roll" (calling Textcritic).

I think Hanifin is a keeper, even if his series wasn't great. He and Hamonic had good chemistry most of the year, he's a great skater, and he's still what, 22? I'd keep him over Brodie, who has peaked IMO.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

I'm good with where Hanifin is in his game and happy to keep him, but with Giordano a mainstay for three years and Valimaki coming hard it is a bit of a log jam for top four spots.

Is Valimaki ready to move up and play with Hamonic? If so it might be better for the cap and roster balance to move Hanifin now, rather than have one of he or Valimaki get considerably less ice.

That can be alleviated somewhat by having one guy on the PK and one on the PP as well though.

The other advantage of moving Hanifin is the ability to promote and use Kylington more effectively. If they see him as a 4-5 guy they probably don't want to lose him or have him sitting most nights.

I think the right side is handled by keeping Stone for a year, but they could upgrade that 6 spot as well.

You need both Valimaki and Hanifin to replace Giordano long term IMO.

Plus it’s unlikely we have another year where we’re so healthy on defense. Sure Gio-Hanifin-Valimaki looks like a logjam but only when we’re healthy. A couple injuries and we’ll be happy to have all 3. It’s a dream scenario for have a top 4 dman on the left side on all 3 pairs, why would we be looking to remove that luxury?

Not sure why people believe we’d auto lose a Gaudreau or Monahan trade. Some tough questions will need to be asked about whether they’ll ever be playoff heroes and whether that is a problem enough to deal one of them.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

You need both Valimaki and Hanifin to replace Giordano long term IMO.

Plus it’s unlikely we have another year where we’re so healthy on defense. Sure Gio-Hanifin-Valimaki looks like a logjam but only when we’re healthy. A couple injuries and we’ll be happy to have all 3. It’s a dream scenario for have a top 4 dman on the left side on all 3 pairs, why would we be looking to remove that luxury?

Interesting you don’t choose to put any heat on the young forwards who were extremely disappointing.

That's fair on injuries.

I thought I was on Monahan, but said moving him almost guarantees you lose the trade.

Also got into the nerves, expectations argument and suggested it's likely only true for some and only to a degree.

I don't see moves involving any of Monahan, Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Is that who you are referring too?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That's fair on injuries.

I thought I was on Monahan, but said moving him almost guarantees you lose the trade.

Also got into the nerves, expectations argument and suggested it's likely only true for some and only to a degree.

I don't see moves involving any of Monahan, Gaudreau or Tkachuk. Is that who you are referring too?

I don’t understand the argument that’s we’d auto lose a Monahan or Gaudreau trade. Makes no sense to me at all. They have sky high trade value. They are young, skilled and on great contracts. Every team would want those kids.

People said the same of Hamilton last year. Couldn’t deal him, contact was too good, upside too high, we’d auto lose the trade. Specious reasoning.

Tkachuk ain’t going anywhere. I think Monahan and Gaudreau are going to cause a lot of discussion amongst our management, scouts and coaches. What they will determine we have no idea. First you have to determine whether you think they’ll ever be big playoff performers. Then you have to determine if that’s a problem. Loubardias made an interesting point when he talked about you still need to make the playoffs and Gaudreau gets you there even if his game goes downhill once the hooking and holding ramps up in the playoffs.

But interesting you talk about Hanifin as he’s one of the last players I’d be moving.

My not looking to move list includes: Tkachuk, Lindholm, Valimaki, Hanifin, Andersson, Kylington, Dube, Mangiapane

That said the only players I’d be actively shopping are Brodie, Stone and Neal.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don’t understand the argument that’s we’d auto lose a Monahan or Gaudreau trade. Makes no sense to me at all. They have sky high trade value. They are young, skilled and on great contracts. Every team would want those kids.

People said the same of Hamilton last year. Couldn’t deal him, contact was too good, upside too high, we’d auto lose the trade. Specious reasoning.

Tkachuk ain’t going anywhere. I think Monahan and Gaudreau are going to cause a lot of discussion amongst our management, scouts and coaches. What they will determine we have no idea. First you have to determine whether you think they’ll ever be big playoff performers. Then you have to determine if that’s a problem. Loubardias made an interesting point when he talked about you still need to make the playoffs and Gaudreau gets you there even if his game goes downhill once the hooking and holding ramps up in the playoffs.

I agree that lots of people said that about Hamilton (not me). But the outcome really depended on Lindholm and Hanifin outperforming their career numbers. So Treliving would have to pull off the same with a trade this year. No one is trading their centre with similar production for Monahan, because those are 1C numbers. So you'd have to find someone who is about to "pop". I don't see who that could be.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don’t understand the argument that’s we’d auto lose a Monahan or Gaudreau trade. Makes no sense to me at all. They have sky high trade value. They are young, skilled and on great contracts. Every team would want those kids.

People said the same of Hamilton last year. Couldn’t deal him, contact was too good, upside too high, we’d auto lose the trade. Specious reasoning.

Tkachuk ain’t going anywhere. I think Monahan and Gaudreau are going to cause a lot of discussion amongst our management, scouts and coaches. What they will determine we have no idea. First you have to determine whether you think they’ll ever be big playoff performers. Then you have to determine if that’s a problem. Loubardias made an interesting point when he talked about you still need to make the playoffs and Gaudreau gets you there even if his game goes downhill once the hooking and holding ramps up in the playoffs.

But interesting you talk about Hanifin as he’s one of the last players I’d be moving.

My not looking to move list includes: Tkachuk, Lindholm, Valimaki, Hanifin, Andersson, Kylington, Dube, Mangiapane

That said the only players I’d be actively shopping are Brodie, Stone and Neal.

Well I never mentioned deal Gaudreau, I think you'd get a haul for him for sure.

Monahan wouldn't bring back the same level of producing asset (top line center with 70 points) because the whole world knows you're moving him because he disappears (or has disappeared) in big games.

So that's a 70 point, number one center with a wart that is in fact the reason he'd be moved.

So that means less doesn't it?

I like Hanifin, for sure, but if they want to adjust the roster up front he's one of the more valuable trade chips that seem to have a ready made replacement already in the wings.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well I never mentioned deal Gaudreau, I think you'd get a haul for him for sure.

Monahan wouldn't bring back the same level of producing asset (top line center with 70 points) because the whole world knows you're moving him because he disappears (or has disappeared) in big games.

So that's a 70 point, number one center with a wart that is in fact the reason he'd be moved.

So that means less doesn't it?

No cause that type of players is a unicorn and almost never available. I mean Joe Thornton and Ryan Johansen were traded. Johansen (who has warts of his own) was traded for arguably one of the most hyped dman prospects of the last decade and I’d argue Monahan has a much better pedigree and resume than Johansen did. Did CBJ lose that trade, trading a young 30 goal scoring #1 centre? I think they’re quite happy with the deal getting a young top pairing dman back, potential franchise dman. You put Monahan on the block and teams will be lining up around the corner to get him IMO. How many years (or decades) would we have given up the sun and moon for a player like Monahan? There are teams out there in that same position we used to be in.

Anyways it wouldn’t be an easy trade to make. But I will always argue against the idea that we’d auto lose it because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Well I never mentioned deal Gaudreau, I think you'd get a haul for him for sure.

Monahan wouldn't bring back the same level of producing asset (top line center with 70 points) because the whole world knows you're moving him because he disappears (or has disappeared) in big games.

So that's a 70 point, number one center with a wart that is in fact the reason he'd be moved.

So that means less doesn't it?

I like Hanifin, for sure, but if they want to adjust the roster up front he's one of the more valuable trade chips that seem to have a ready made replacement already in the wings.

If you move Monahan for a C with less points but more defence/physicality/skating you'd find out pretty quickly if he is just the garbageman some people claim.

I'll give Treliving credit on the Hamilton trade - he's not afraid of the possibility he might lose the trade in order to build the team he wants. So he traded Hamilton - a guy with big points and question marks, and Ferland, a guy who'd had a big year but who also had question marks, and Fox, a terrific prospect with a gigantic question mark, for guys with lesser track records (but big draft pedigrees).

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

No cause that type of players is a unicorn and almost never available. I mean Joe Thornton and Ryan Johansen were traded. Johansen (who has warts of his own) was traded for arguably one of the most hyped dman prospects of the last decade and I’d argue Monahan has a much better pedigree and resume than Johansen did. Did CBJ lose that trade, trading a young 30 goal scoring #1 centre? I think they’re quite happy with the deal getting a young top pairing dman back, potential franchise dman. You put Monahan on the block and teams will be lining up around the corner to get him IMO. How many years (or decades) would we have given up the sun and moon for a player like Monahan? There are teams out there in that same position we used to be in.

Anyways it wouldn’t be an easy trade to make. But I will always argue against the idea that we’d auto lose it because that makes absolutely no sense to me.

That's some pretty fair reasoning.

Maybe I'm guilty of the opposite of most fan bases, where I actually undervalue Calgary players, who knows.

I guess I just see Johansson as an immature beast that Nashville took a chance on, while Monahan is pretty established as to what he is ... a shooter that can play with great players, won't drive a line, and is maybe a bit soft.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That’s a solid read. Thanks, Bingo.

As poorly as Hanifin played in the playoffs I would be shocked to see him moved. He has been in the League for so long that it is easy to forget that he is younger than Rasmus Andersson, but moreover, this was also his first taste of the Stanley Cup playoffs. He took a step this year, and I would bet that he continues to get better.


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Total agree with Textcritic which an anomaly. Hanifin is the largest Flame D-man and had the most hits by a d-man in both the regular season and in the playoffs.

He is the #1 untouchable on Defense ahead of Valimaki and Gio.

Gio is not going to play a physical game as he winds down his career.

Hamonic at his peak (with the Islanders) averaged well over 2 hits a game. This year he was down to .6 hit a game. Not wanting to bump anyone after he stood up to Gudbranson and got smashed.

[Manhattanboy]

This seems like as good a thread as any to note the comment of another poster re the passion displayed by the SJ players last night: guys like Hertl, Couture, LeBanc and others. Incredible effort, heart - you could see afterwards how totally drained they were - they left it all on the ice in the third and OT.

Wish we had more players who play like that.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

This seems like as good a thread as any to note the comment of another poster re the passion displayed by the SJ players last night: guys like Hertl, Couture, LeBanc and others. Incredible effort, heart - you could see afterwards how totally drained they were - they left it all on the ice in the third and OT.

Wish we had more players who play like that.

In my opinion it took an extraordinary event to ignite their passion. If not for the 5 minute major, and the Sharks rallying around Pavelski's injury, they're done. I give them some credit for their passion, but 9 times out of 10 they don't show it and go home with the season over.

[Jore]

I agreed with trading Hanifin though I doubt the management is looking into that. He probably has the most value in the league between him, Brodie and Hamonic, but his on ice play is just so... meh.

He’s decent at most parts of the game but lacks dynamic ability and I haven’t seen any intensity from him in the time he’s been a flame. The playoffs really exposed this imo. I don’t think I saw anything from him that Valimaki or kylington couldn’t have provided with the same opportunities he got. He’s really young and could improve, but Andersson and Valimaki, both rookies, looked about 100 times more poised and confident and capable than he did in the playoffs.

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by the2bears

In my opinion it took an extraordinary event to ignite their passion. If not for the 5 minute major, and the Sharks rallying around Pavelski's injury, they're done. I give them some credit for their passion, but 9 times out of 10 they don't show it and go home with the season over.

I think we're ignoring the 3-1 deficit they overcame which included a shorthanded goal in 2OT on the road

Heart.

On topic, I want a team that will visibly fight through adversity or spring to life when they know their opponent is facing it. Not just talk about it.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

This seems like as good a thread as any to note the comment of another poster re the passion displayed by the SJ players last night: guys like Hertl, Couture, LeBanc and others. Incredible effort, heart - you could see afterwards how totally drained they were - they left it all on the ice in the third and OT.

Wish we had more players who play like that.

I always forget about Hertl but every time I see him I like him. One thing - there's a guy who was used as a winger for years, and was OK, but really had a great year this year when moved to C. I wonder if Bennett should getr another look at C.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by TheoFleury

You aren't getting barkov for anything. He's their captain and probably a top 5/10 center. They would never accept gaudreau for him imo. Even if that + was valimaki

In fact, he's likely already a top 5 centre.

Not many centres have his combination of scoring and defense.

He's the building block that Florida hopes will win him a cup. You aren't getting him for a guy Calgary would be willing to trade (presumably)because of concerns that he doesn't produce in the playoffs.

If you want that big centre, you'll likely need to get him prior to him starting to put up big points, such as Nolan Patrick. With that comes big risk.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by The Cobra

In fact, he's likely already a top 5 centre.

Not many centres have his combination of scoring and defense.

He's the building block that Florida hopes will win him a cup. You aren't getting him for a guy Calgary would be willing to trade (presumably)because of concerns that he doesn't produce in the playoffs.

If you want that big centre, you'll likely need to get him prior to him starting to put up big points, such as Nolan Patrick. With that comes big risk.

Aside from Tavares, I can't think of too many elite 1Cs acquired by trade. Before that would it be Seguin (unless O'Reilly counts)? And before that Thornton?