Horrible bombings in Sri Lanka.

[PaperBagger'14]

I really have a hard time buying into the importance of identity politics in a time where hundreds are dead. Killing masses of innocent people is abhorrent. I dont care if it's at a mosque, a gay nightclub or a LARPing convention.

My thoughts are with the remaining families that didn't get to have an Easter dinner with their loved ones.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by PaperBagger'14

I really have a hard time buying into the importance of identity politics in a time where hundreds are dead. Killing masses of innocent people is abhorrent. I dont care if it's at a mosque, a gay nightclub or a LARPing convention.

My thoughts are with the remaining families that didn't get to have an Easter dinner with their loved ones.

Identity politics is the tendency for people who identify or sympathize with specific groups, to base their politics on their allegiance to those groups and form alliances around them.

We are discussing fundamentals of freedom of religion and association. When a minority group, be it religious, sexuality, ethnic, etc.. is targeted. It's a big deal.

Your statement trivializes not only what these people in Indonesia are going through, but also what the experiences of the victims of the Christchurch Mosque attack in New Zealand, the Pulse nightclub in Florida, etc...We all accept that any mass murder is horrible. There's another level of reverberation through a community, when they've been targeted due to religious beliefs, sexuality, ethnicity, etc....The effects on those communities are far more profound.

[Ped]

Here's the latest updates from CNN:


Here's what we've learned since then:

• There were six suicide bombers involved in the explosions. So far, 24 people have been arrested in connection to the attacks.
• The FBI and Interpol are among the global agencies who are stepping in to assist the investigation.
• The government may have had information about the attacks prior to the bombings. A Sri Lankan government minister claimed that US and Indian governments had warned of "something terrible," but it's unclear if any action was taken.
• More victims' names and faces are emerging: a fifth-grader from Washington, DC, a British mother and her two children, an education publishing employee from Colorado, the three children of a Danish retail billionaire.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

You don't live in a part of the world characterized by sectarian violence.

I just can't understand your take on this. If this attack happened at Olympic Plaza on New Year's Eve, would you be thinking, well, at least it wasn't at a place of worship? Of course not. It's a tragedy, but it's not made worse because it was at churches. The tragedy would be the same regardless of where it was. It's tragic because a bunch of innocents unnecessarily died.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

I just can't understand your take on this. If this attack happened at Olympic Plaza on New Year's Eve, would you be thinking, well, at least it wasn't at a place of worship? Of course not. It's a tragedy, but it's not made worse because it was at churches. The tragedy would be the same regardless of where it was. It's tragic because a bunch of innocents unnecessarily died.

You can't see how targeting minority groups is worse? There's a reason why Western governments have all enacted hate crime legislation.

Obviously any kind of murder and mass killing is a tragedy. When you target a specific group based on religion, ethnicity, and sexuality, you bring another element of horror to the entire community.

I can't see how you don't understand this? Are you trying to be politically correct by not mentioning the religions of the people involved? Is this specifically because it involves Christianity?

After the Christchurch massacre in New Zealand, don't you think that was a wakeup call to the way people view Muslims and the fact that innocent Muslims had been targeted was horrendous? Can you not see the difference between targeting that group and targeting random people at a shopping mall?

[Smartcar]

This is just horrible, and even worse because it should have been preventable:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/w...g-news&ref=cta

COLOMBO, Sri Lanka — The confidential security memo laid it all out: names, addresses, phone numbers, even the times in the middle of the night that one suspect would visit his wife.

In the days leading up to the devastating suicide bombings that killed nearly 300 people in Sri Lanka on Easter Sunday, the country’s security agencies had been closely watching a secretive cell of the National Thowheeth Jama’ath, a little-known radical Islamist organization that security officials in Sri Lanka now say carried out the attacks and may have received help from abroad.

They knew the group was dangerous. They had collected intelligence on the whereabouts of its leaders in the April 11 security memo, which warned of Catholic church bombings. They had been warned even earlier by India that the group, also known by the spelling National Thowheed Jama’ath, was plotting church attacks. They knew as far back as January that radical Islamists possibly tied to the group had stockpiled weapons and detonators.

And within hours of when three churches and three hotels were bombed, Sri Lankan security services swooped down on at least 24 suspects, suggesting that they also knew exactly where the group had been operating.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by Smartcar

This is just horrible, and even worse because it should have been preventable:

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/04/22/w...g-news&ref=cta

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bin_La...o_Strike_in_US

[#-3]

Originally Posted by blankall

You can't see how targeting minority groups is worse?

You are right that there is allot of danger when people start specifically targeting minority groups, and that is a big part of the narrative. But an attack on minorities was not the thing either of us responded to.

It was said this was particularly reprehensible due to it being at a place of worship, and we asked "why that is?" Places of worship are almost exclusively responsible for the existence of such actions, and while that fact alone should not be cause to wish any ill intent on those visiting these buildings, it certainly should exempt them from the great moral standing they try to lay claim to.

Your new claim about the dangers of seeing these attacks on minority population. 100%, I'm on board with that, minorities need extra protection for the dangers like sorting, genocide and discrimination are well documented through human history. But its just callus to say this is worse due to it being at a religious institution.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

You can't see how targeting minority groups is worse? There's a reason why Western governments have all enacted hate crime legislation.

Targeting anyone is bad, whether it's because you hate Christians, Muslims, your classmates in a high school, etc., it doesn't matter. Mass killings of innocent people are tragic. Because the setting was a place of worship doesn't make this worse than, say, the Parkland school shootings.

Originally Posted by blankall

Obviously any kind of murder and mass killing is a tragedy. When you target a specific group based on religion, ethnicity, and sexuality, you bring another element of horror to the entire community.

I can't see how you don't understand this? Are you trying to be politically correct by not mentioning the religions of the people involved? Is this specifically because it involves Christianity?

After the Christchurch massacre in New Zealand, don't you think that was a wakeup call to the way people view Muslims and the fact that innocent Muslims had been targeted was horrendous? Can you not see the difference between targeting that group and targeting random people at a shopping mall?

Yeah, there I go being politically correct again.

If I were to go to a church (I don't; I'm areligious), I would expect to be more of a target than a grade 10 kid sitting in math class. If I belonged to a group of people that believed anybody who wasn't in that group was going to burn in an eternal hell, I would expect a little push back from outsiders for my abhorrent views. Religious groups have been killing other religious groups for hundreds/thousands of years. Places of worship have been targets for hundreds/thousands of years.

I maintain this tragedy is tragic because of all of the loss of innocent life. The tragedy isn't exacerbated because of where they were. It would be equally tragic if these were middle schoolers, shoppers, revelers, etc.

[cracher]

I like Sliver's position. Degrees of tragedy puts you into the questionable position of assigning value to life. With the exception of maybe the criterion of age, this gets sketchy.


The hateful murderous intent, to me anyways, is a separate entity from the tragedy itself.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by #-3

You are right that there is allot of danger when people start specifically targeting minority groups, and that is a big part of the narrative. But an attack on minorities was not the thing either of us responded to.

It was said this was particularly reprehensible due to it being at a place of worship, and we asked "why that is?" Places of worship are almost exclusively responsible for the existence of such actions, and while that fact alone should not be cause to wish any ill intent on those visiting these buildings, it certainly should exempt them from the great moral standing they try to lay claim to.

Your new claim about the dangers of seeing these attacks on minority population. 100%, I'm on board with that, minorities need extra protection for the dangers like sorting, genocide and discrimination are well documented through human history. But its just callus to say this is worse due to it being at a religious institution.

Freedom of religion is a basic tenant of any free society. Targeting minority religions prevents that.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by cracher

I like Sliver's position. Degrees of tragedy puts you into the questionable position of assigning value to life. With the exception of maybe the criterion of age, this gets sketchy.


The hateful murderous intent, to me anyways, is a separate entity from the tragedy itself.

It's not about degrees of tragedy. It's two separate crimes. This is why most countries enact laws against terrorism, hate crimes, hate speech, etc.. and make the punishments worse for these crimes than the acts themselves.

Motivation is extremely important, when putting any crime in context. As is the effect on the victims. In this case all Christians in Sri Lanka are victims. The community as a whole has been victimized.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's not about degrees of tragedy. It's two separate crimes. This is why most countries enact laws against terrorism, hate crimes, hate speech, etc.. and make the punishments worse for these crimes than the acts themselves.

Motivation is extremely important, when putting any crime in context. As is the effect on the victims. In this case all Christians in Sri Lanka are victims. The community as a whole has been victimized.

And everyone who isn't Christian can breathe a sigh of relief that they don't have to worry? Doesn't that terrorize fewer people than a completely random drive-my-truck-through-a-crowd-at-a-festival-sort-of terrorist attack? That terrorizes everybody. That could have been me? I feel like your example goes against your point.

[Scroopy Noopers]

Originally Posted by blankall

Freedom of religion is a basic tenant of any free society. Targeting minority religions prevents that.

Freedom to do as you wish is a basic tenant of a free society. Terrorism prevents that.

[CliffFletcher]

Article in the Independent today points to the very different way this was treated from the Christchurch massacre, with most media outlets reluctant to recognize that the victims were targeted because they were Christian.

http://t.email3.telegraph.co.uk/r/?i...paign=DM997467

[blankall]

Originally Posted by Sliver

And everyone who isn't Christian can breathe a sigh of relief that they don't have to worry? Doesn't that terrorize fewer people than a completely random drive-my-truck-through-a-crowd-at-a-festival-sort-of terrorist attack? That terrorizes everybody. That could have been me? I feel like your example goes against your point.

Except that the other communities in Sri Lanka weren't targeted...the Christian community was, and by multiple people, with a strong possibility that outside forces, who may do the same thing again, exist. Do you honestly not see how the Christians in Sri Lanka are going to be more afraid than a random person living in Canada?

Anyways, I think I've made my point. Murdering people based on religion, race, sexuality, etc..adds another level of horror and terror, as the whole community feels targeted. The vast majority of law makers and governments agree with me, hence anti-hate and terrorism laws.

[Nyah]

More reports of explosions and gunfire, now in the city of Kalmanai in Sri Lanka. Looks like this was during a raid of a suspected ISIS hideout:

https://twitter.com/user/status/1121797575470800897

https://twitter.com/user/status/1121784516123643906

[Snuffleupagus]

Just when it looks like human kind is getting smarter each decade we are reminded that humans can still be really stupid when they blow themselves and others up in the name of religion

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Just when it looks like human kind is getting smarter each decade we are reminded that humans can still be really stupid when they blow themselves and others up in the name of religion

Yes and murder over concepts like gender, sex, real estate, food, the last crab cake on the plate. We kill enmasse over perceived slights and rejections. We go to war because your country has more then our country, or your leader made fun of our leaders hair. We pick up arms and kill enmasse because we aren't attractive enough, or tough enough or smart enough.


We have the advantage of usable thumbs, but at the heart of it the human species is still incredibly savage and violent, whether on national, religious or individual grounds, the only thing that's up for debate is how we justify it. And as the population swells and resources shrink, its going to be a free for all, grand battle royal of an apocalypse where the last few surviving ones will duke it out with rocks and sticks.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Yes and murder over concepts like gender, sex, real estate, food, the last crab cake on the plate. We kill enmasse over perceived slights and rejections. We go to war because your country has more then our country, or your leader made fun of our leaders hair. We pick up arms and kill enmasse because we aren't attractive enough, or tough enough or smart enough.


We have the advantage of usable thumbs, but at the heart of it the human species is still incredibly savage and violent, whether on national, religious or individual grounds, the only thing that's up for debate is how we justify it. And as the population swells and resources shrink, its going to be a free for all, grand battle royal of an apocalypse where the last few surviving ones will duke it out with rocks and sticks.

Yeah, we humans are savages but when we blow ourselves up over a deity god it shows all kinds of stupid or at least extreme low IQ, I guess some religions just "dumb" down the people for control, it seems Islam takes the cake now days.