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Old 07-26-2019, 11:05 AM   #81
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Well said again, MBates. Thank-you, as always, for your time and effort you put into posts like these.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:14 AM   #82
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3. The Crown agreed to a lesser offence of aggravated assault. The punishment was not for attempted murder. This is a major difference because a judge cannot sentence someone for having intent to kill when they are being sentenced for a crime that does not include that level of intent.

With the drugs and mental health issues maybe the Crown genuinely assessed he could not prove that intent beyond a reasonable doubt. I don’t know and nothing in the media coverage tells us.
While I barely have an opinion on the sentencing of this person, I think this is absolutely the key point that people were missing. This seems like a pretty harsh sentence as far as aggravated assault goes. People seem to be founding their expectations on an assumption that the perpetrator was charged with something else.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:36 AM   #83
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While I barely have an opinion on the sentencing of this person, I think this is absolutely the key point that people were missing. This seems like a pretty harsh sentence as far as aggravated assault goes. People seem to be founding their expectations on an assumption that the perpetrator was charged with something else.
I certainly missed this.

The 4.5 years does seem reasonable for what she pleaded guilty to.

I think one aspect missed in Mbates excellent post was that the reason to imprison longer isn’t about prevention of crime before it happens. I think there is quite a lot of evidence to support that the sentence length of a crime doesn’t change the likelyhood of it occurring. However another important part of a sentence is the protection of society. This person likely will commit more crimes in the future so part of the sentence needs to consider the prevention of this individual in committing future crimes.
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Old 07-26-2019, 11:44 AM   #84
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Maybe it’s some salt in the wound, longer prison terms not preventing crime and all that. Someone correct me, but the criminal in the case had already been in jail at least one for violent crime? This might be one of those exceptions where a longer prison term may actually have prevented this?
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Old 07-26-2019, 12:21 PM   #85
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As a society that continues to fail to properly address mental health and addictions issues particularly in indigenous communities perhaps we all should take our share of responsibility for this offence rather than single out and declare how much we hate the justice system that is only called upon to clean up after the potentially preventable disaster has already happened?
We need to recognize how remarkably difficult this problem is. You mentioned 24/7 wraparound care - yes, that's probably what it will take for the most damaged. But how many people are lining up to take jobs that combine the worst elements of addiction counselling and policing? How many would want to spend their days and nights with damaged, often abusive clients, hanging around in alleys and parks with junkies? Pay them $100k, $150k and I still don't see anywhere close to the necessary number of people choosing that as a vocation. How many of us in this thread would want the job?

Beyond that, we live in a liberal society. People are free to come and go as they please - regardless of whether they're homeless or depressed or mentally ill or addicts - so long as they aren't committing a crime. IIRC, less than 10 per cent of people who use the needle exchange program in Calgary avail themselves of the free counselling provided. So how do you compel people to accept treatment?

Just look at the absolute ####show around placing indigenous children in care. Social workers try to stop the cycle by removing children from toxic and abusive homes, but politicians and the media call this an injustice and try to have it stopped. So now they leave children in neglectful and abusive homes because they've been told the numbers have to come down.

So blaming our society for not figuring this out yet seems to me like blaming scientists for not solving cancer yet. Just because a problem is persistent doesn't mean nobody is doing anything about it. We've been working on this problem for more than 50 years.
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Old 07-27-2019, 07:48 PM   #86
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There's no fear anymore, jails are a country club joke, society is becoming a bunch of entitled brats, parents can't even spank their kids for wrong doings, teachers can't give failing grades and we are now opening up safe drug injection sites for these spoiled brats so they don't kill themselves. This same society has voted a lying narcissistic rapist pig to the most powerful position on the planet.

I won't around but I would be shocked if humanity last another 50 or so years
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Old 07-27-2019, 07:56 PM   #87
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There's no fear anymore, jails are a country club joke, society is becoming a bunch of entitled brats, parents can't even spank their kids for wrong doings, teachers can't give failing grades and we are now opening up safe drug injection sites for these spoiled brats so they don't kill themselves. This same society has voted a lying narcissistic rapist pig to the most powerful position on the planet.

I won't around but I would be shocked if humanity last another 50 or so years
And yet violent crime and crime in general is among the lowest point since it has been recorded.
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Old 07-27-2019, 10:11 PM   #88
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I can understand visceral irrational responses to emotional cases, but it is important to call them out as being visceral and irrational.....
Slow clap, that has to be one best posts I have ever read on CP. Well done.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:18 AM   #89
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Maybe it’s some salt in the wound, longer prison terms not preventing crime and all that. Someone correct me, but the criminal in the case had already been in jail at least one for violent crime? This might be one of those exceptions where a longer prison term may actually have prevented this?
https://www.sootoday.com/local-news/...stopped-165979

Police pursued the vehicle a short distance along highway 17 with emergency lights and sirens activated until concern for public safety warranted police to disengage.

At 8:43 p.m. officers from the East Algoma OPP in Blind River located the suspect vehicle again on highway 17 just west of Blind River.

1) Obstruct peace officer, Criminal Code (two counts)

2) Disobey court order, Criminal Code

3) Possession of property obtained by crime, Criminal Code (two counts)

4) Theft under $5,000, Criminal Code

5) Breach probation, Criminal Code.


https://globalnews.ca/news/2436763/c...empted-murder/

When they arrived, they found a man with serious, life-threatening injuries. He was rushed to hospital where he remained as of Jan. 6.

Two uninjured women were also inside the suite. They were taken into custody and questioned.

Stephanie Favel, 32, has been charged with attempted murder.

Police do not have a motive, but said the attack was unprovoked.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:33 AM   #90
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There's no fear anymore, jails are a country club joke, society is becoming a bunch of entitled brats, parents can't even spank their kids for wrong doings, teachers can't give failing grades and we are now opening up safe drug injection sites for these spoiled brats so they don't kill themselves. This same society has voted a lying narcissistic rapist pig to the most powerful position on the planet.

I won't around but I would be shocked if humanity last another 50 or so years
What are you talking about, I spanked my kids when they deserved it and never had an issue. What you can’t do is beat them or use a weapon. And what you want jails to be like the ones in countries with questionable human rights? And society always has been entitled brats just ask the generation before them.
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Old 07-28-2019, 01:02 PM   #91
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I can understand visceral irrational responses to emotional cases, but it is important to call them out as being visceral and irrational.

There is much room for criticism and many valid arguments can be made for harsher sentencing or reduced use of plea bargaining etc.

Saying that any person who works in our justice system is equally responsible for the crimes committed by criminals is so ridiculous it is hard to comprehend how one would ever type such nonsense.

Shall I go turn myself in to start serving MY 4 1/2 years in jail today? But wait, I guess it’s starting my life sentence because if I am ‘equally liable’ for this criminal conduct I must also be responsible for everyone else’s offences as well.

As for your less ridiculous suggestion to hold the judge accountable by ‘testifying’ in front of the victim’s family...I mean functionally that is exactly what happened.

The judge sits in a public courtroom, open to the media to have everything he says and does reported to the world, and in front of the family and often the actual victim, dictates his reasons for why he has decided the sentence he is ordering is the proper one according to law.

The fact that we are discussing some of what he said demonstrates one of the best parts of our justice system. It is nearly 100% open and able to be fully scrutinized.

As for the sentence itself, it is difficult to comment on much given I don’t really know the details of what was considered. What I will point out are a few things:

1. Our system gives credit for guilty pleas - and that would have been a factor here.

2. The Crown only asked for 5 years and the judge gave 4 1/2. For all intents and purposes the government got what it argued was the appropriate sentence.

3. The Crown agreed to a lesser offence of aggravated assault. The punishment was not for attempted murder. This is a major difference because a judge cannot sentence someone for having intent to kill when they are being sentenced for a crime that does not include that level of intent.

With the drugs and mental health issues maybe the Crown genuinely assessed he could not prove that intent beyond a reasonable doubt. I don’t know and nothing in the media coverage tells us.

4. There is a comment about the offender being a classic victim of trans generational trauma which is the language of reference to Gladue sentencing considerations. Our Criminal Code mandates a judge to take judicial notice of this historical systemic inequity and consider whether it reduces the offender’s culpability and if it does to account for that in reduced severity of sentencing.

Put another way, it would have been illegal for the judge not to consider those factors. If you have a problem with that aspect you need to take that up with your federal MP. Your suggestion the judge failed to do his job (which is to apply the laws we have not invent what he thinks they should be) is not based in fact.

For what it is worth, how to properly characterize and apply Gladue sentencing factors has plagued the courts for years. There has been extensive back and forth decisions from the Alberta Court of Appeal in particular. It could fill an entire law school course never mind entirely derail this thread.

The bottom line is the criminal sentencing process cannot undue tragedy. We have to stop expecting it to be able to and we can then have less profound disappointment.

If you watch the video in this case you will see for certain that the offender was not contemplating relative potential sentencing harshness before pushing the victim. Longer sentences will not make these crimes stop happening. That doesn’t mean it is invalid to advocate for longer sentences just be aware it will not stop these tragedies.

As someone who has been in the criminal justice system for getting close to 20 years, who pays plenty in taxes, who has received a late night call to go to my family after they were in a serious highway head on collision caused by a young aboriginal woman driving drunk, I can say that in my opinion the thought of blowing astronomical amounts of money to incarcerate more people for longer is possibly the least effective thing we can do.

Money and effort should be focussed on preventing offences not trying to send a message after its too late.

Few ever ask how much taxpayer money will we spend incarcerating this offender? 4 years of keeping a female inmate costs over $330,000.

http://publications.gc.ca/collection...2-2018-eng.pdf

We will spend that without thought and be outraged we are not spending more (to keep her in longer).

But if a year prior to the offence I came to you and said, please allow me to spend $250,000 (considerably less than the incarceration bill) on one aboriginal person to give her individualized wraparound counselling and services to get her the help she needs to avoid a cycle of addiction and crime, would you authorize the cheque? Be honest.

I’m not saying every person can be saved by such public spending on treatment instead of punishment. But many can. It is much easier though to just demand harsher sentences and allow us to trick ourselves into thinking we are solving problems when really we are just hiding them in penitentiaries.

As a society that continues to fail to properly address mental health and addictions issues particularly in indigenous communities perhaps we all should take our share of responsibility for this offence rather than single out and declare how much we hate the justice system that is only called upon to clean up after the potentially preventable disaster has already happened?

Seems like it might be a more productive thing to discuss rather than jailing every single person working in the system.
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There's no fear anymore, jails are a country club joke, society is becoming a bunch of entitled brats, parents can't even spank their kids for wrong doings, teachers can't give failing grades and we are now opening up safe drug injection sites for these spoiled brats so they don't kill themselves. This same society has voted a lying narcissistic rapist pig to the most powerful position on the planet.

I won't around but I would be shocked if humanity last another 50 or so years
The juxtaposition of Mbates and those who want justice ruled by revenge and emotion always highlight the importance of proper laws and defense in any democratic nation.

Put the rights of the citizens in the hands of the citizens and they'll give them all away.
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Old 07-28-2019, 09:40 PM   #92
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And yet violent crime and crime in general is among the lowest point since it has been recorded.
Then I assume you're happy with our justice system?
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Old 07-28-2019, 10:02 PM   #93
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Then I assume you're happy with our justice system?
People get upset at our country's justice system when sentences are handed out (including me - a couple sentences have made me sick in recent years). But the key with a healthy society is to put a HEAVY emphasis on what gets the best results for society, not what makes the victims families and following citizens feel good.

I go back and forth and ultimately I do feel we need to continue to include justice for victims and their families in sentencing, but ultimately it needs to be a distant second to what produces the best results for rehabilitation and getting people out of prison and contributing to society.

It sucks when you've been or know anyone that's been a victim, absolutely. Like has been noted however, we're doing really well in terms of crime of all kinds going down.
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