[News Roundup] CSEC/City arena deal UPDATED: Third Party Facilitator

[Yoho]

The sad reality is this mayor with the business acumen of a child will end up costing city tax payers way more for this project when the dust finally settles.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Jordan!

How much would it actually cost the individual citizen tax payer? I seriously want to know.

If I was living in the city and a die hard Flames fan i'd be happy to pay my part to keep something i love and value a part of the community.

I'd say they should add a ticket tax to cover the city's costs if people are that willing to pay to keep something they love... but of course they were going to do that anyway... with the money going to CSEC.

[Envitro]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Something that is actually for the whole public good and nobody has to pay to enjoy?

My point was not whether public libraries should exist or not, whether I ever use one again in my life or not, but should they be grandiose and cost hundreds of millions of dollars?

The debate over "public good" is multi-faceted.

Our tax dollars have been used for all sorts of public works projects that I'll never ever see any benefit from, yet when we're talking about building a new publicly-owned event center facility that will be used for many things other than just hockey games, and is 50% funded by a private enterprise then I guess we're not having the same conversation then.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Wow a lot of people sure buy into what CSEC is selling hook line and sinker. Seems pretty obvious why the mayor wanted to try and get ahead of this. She knew the drones would be out for blood once the Flames started pointing fingers.

This explains why ownership negotiates this way. They know the general populace of sports fans, even conservatives, don’t actually care about fiscal responsibility as long as the money is being wasted on pretty things they like and not stupid libraries or art projects that only liberal elites can enjoy.

And all just so that the owner can take more of your money and double ticket prices for the same product!

This is like the ultimate grift.

[direwolf]

If the Flames are intent on staying in the 'Dome as their statement says, will they end up doing another renovation eventually to at least try to modernize it some more? Packing up and heading south seems like the better option for them at this point.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Yoho

The sad reality is this mayor with the business acumen of a child will end up costing city tax payers way more for this project when the dust finally settles.

Wait but that’s exactly what she’s trying to avoid?

What could she do right in your mind? agree to pay more? But then we’d be paying more tax dollars for the arena. So she should fight against that! But then billionaires get angry and quit. So she’s wrong there too!

[8sPOT]

I don’t blame CESC here at all, the City re-negged on the original 50/50 deal, and that could have terminated everything right there. Surely there’s other markets more willing to co-operate and approach things with a business mindset. In fact I bet there are cities who would love to have an NHL team and would jump at a 50/50 arena deal.

Seems really silly to potentially let this slip away. A new building has so many positives and would be a big boost for the city and downtown core.

The city comes off as a ####ty and sketchy business partner here for sure.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Yoho

The sad reality is this mayor with the business acumen of a child will end up costing city tax payers way more for this project when the dust finally settles.

How do you figure that?

[Johnny Makarov]

Originally Posted by Yoho

The sad reality is this mayor with the business acumen of a child will end up costing city tax payers way more for this project when the dust finally settles.

Sounds like Gondek is the new Druh for some people. No matter what she does they will always be pissed.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Envitro

My point was not whether public libraries should exist or not, whether I ever use one again in my life or not, but should they be grandiose and cost hundreds of millions of dollars?

The debate over "public good" is multi-faceted.

Our tax dollars have been used for all sorts of public works projects that I'll never ever see any benefit from, yet when we're talking about building a new publicly-owned event center facility that will be used for many things other than just hockey games, and is 50% funded by a private enterprise then I guess we're not having the same conversation then.

For the record, the Calgary Library cost $245M and provides a public benefit. Is it overly grandiose? Maybe. But it's public and available to all Calgarians for free.

In comparison we're talking about an arena that costs 3x as much with all profits from the building going to a private organization.

[Hockey-and_stuff]

Originally Posted by 8sPOT

I don’t blame CESC here at all, the City re-negged on the original 50/50 deal, and that could have terminated everything right there. Surely there’s other markets more willing to co-operate and approach things with a business mindset. In fact I bet there are cities who would love to have an NHL team and would jump at a 50/50 arena deal.

Seems really silly to potentially let this slip away. A new building has so many positives and would be a big boost for the city and downtown core.

The city comes off as a ####ty and sketchy business partner here for sure.

When CSEC came back in July demanding CMLC be removed from the project wouldn't that be reneging on the original deal as well? Or is it only bad when the City tries to fiddle with the agreed-upon deal?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Envitro

My point was not whether public libraries should exist or not, whether I ever use one again in my life or not, but should they be grandiose and cost hundreds of millions of dollars?

The debate over "public good" is multi-faceted.

Our tax dollars have been used for all sorts of public works projects that I'll never ever see any benefit from, yet when we're talking about building a new publicly-owned event center facility that will be used for many things other than just hockey games, and is 50% funded by a private enterprise then I guess we're not having the same conversation then.

Publicly-owned means what to Calgary residents in the case of an events centre? I can just go in there and skate on the ice like it’s Olympic Plaza or Bowness Park? I can show up to a concert without having to pay? What’s the benefit?

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Hockey-and_stuff

When CSEC came back in July demanding CMLC be removed from the project wouldn't that be reneging on the original deal as well? Or is it only bad when the City tries to fiddle with the agreed-upon deal?

Even CSEC admits that they agreed to they would be on the hook for any cost overruns (of course, they conveniently omit the part where they requested that CMLC be removed as project manager in their statement)

and agreed to accept the risk of reasonable future design and construction cost increases related to the Event Centre in spite of our original 50%/50% agreement.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by DJones

Teams statement pretty much aligns with what I expected.

Costs have increased substantially and they have no intention of eating it all. That's really the whole story. What they budgeted 2 years ago is no longer reality, not even close.

2017-2019 was always the time to get it done, similar to Edmonton.

I'm not sure this is true. CSEC has agreed to cost overruns but not add-ons.

[Torture]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Publicly-owned means what to Calgary residents in the case of an events centre? I can just go in there and skate on the ice like it’s Olympic Plaza or Bowness Park? I can show up to a concert without having to pay? What’s the benefit?

The benefit of the arena being publicly owned is that the Flames don't pay taxes on the arena and the City is on the hook for demolition costs at the end of it's lifecycle.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by Hockey-and_stuff

When CSEC came back in July demanding CMLC be removed from the project wouldn't that be reneging on the original deal as well? Or is it only bad when the City tries to fiddle with the agreed-upon deal?

The latter and also the audacity of adding a cost attributed to…..CLIMATE!

Omg unacceptable, get it away, unbelievable.

The pettiness of these billionaires is hilarious

[Mass_nerder]

Originally Posted by Manhattanboy

City planners continue to be out of touch with reality. Why anyone would ever want to develop anything of substance in this town is beyond me. You think you have your project costed, spend millions on plans and a DP application only to let the ivory tower social engineers at the City in the name of vague concepts like climate mitigation (what a joke) loose and impose millions more on your project, because they can. I don’t blame Edwards at all for telling the City (as planning authority) to F off.

The process you're describing is pretty standard in any larger city in North America. In fact, getting stuff through in Calgary is a lot easier than other major cities in Canada. No step code to deal with, for example.

[Cowboy89]

I'm sick of politician types and Calgary ivory tower elite who consider anything sports related to be too gauche to fund while they gold plate basically every other project. Only the largest cities have had arena's / stadiums entirely funded by the private sector.

Let's fast forward 5-10 years, the Flames have moved on, Calgary's aging Saddledome prevents any but the most basic concerts/events from coming to town. It's not like we aren't going to have to build a new arena / events stadium soon anyway. Look at Winnipeg, the gaping hole in their city from the Jets leaving essentially ended up causing a new stadium paid for entirely by government to be built. In the end we're all going to be paying for a new arena anyway.

The city should get on with it and avoid having our team leaving and waiting 10-20 years for another NHL team to come back once a new arena has to be built entirely at our expense. If city council and the planning commission post election turnover are demanding $19 million of extra things in a development permit that weren't part of the original scope they should pay for it entirely themselves.

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

I'm sick of politician types and Calgary ivory tower elite who consider anything sports related to be too gauche to fund while they gold plate basically every other project. Only the largest cities have had arena's / stadiums entirely funded by the private sector.

Is the issue sports related or are people concerned that Calgary taxpayers are subsidizing a for-profit business run by a billionaire that doesn't even live in Calgary and likely doesn't pay Canadian taxes?

Let's fast forward 5-10 years, the Flames have moved on, Calgary's aging Saddledome prevents any but the most basic concerts/events from coming to town. It's not like we aren't going to have to build a new arena / events stadium soon anyway. Look at Winnipeg, the gaping hole in their city from the Jets leaving essentially ended up causing a new stadium paid for entirely by government to be built. In the end we're all going to be paying for a new arena anyway.

The city should get on with it and avoid having our team leaving and waiting 10-20 years for another NHL team to come back once a new arena has to be built entirely at our expense. If city council and the planning commission post election turnover are demanding $19 million of extra things that weren't part of the original scope they should pay for it entirely themselves.

Are the only options: 1) pay the billionaire what he wants or 2) watch the team leave?

I think there may be a middle ground you're ignoring.

[Looch City]

The city should come back with agreeing to pay the $19mil extra and instating CMCL as the lead again.

And then watch the billionaires be pissed once again lol