Friedman: LTIR may be addressed in next CBA

[Mr.Coffee]

Originally Posted by butterfly

I agree that I’d like to see what you’re arguing should be the case, but since it isn’t the case, why get mad at Las Vegas for figuring it out and taking advantage of it?

The best team is figured out through an 82 game season, but people adore tournaments and think whoever wins one is actually better, and attribute it to all kinds of unquantifiable factors that never include random variation.

To your second para that’s probably true and I agree.

To the first, oh I’m not mad at Vegas. I just think they are intentionally circumventing the spirit and intent of the salary cap. That’s fine, and quite frankly that stuff will always happen by all teams, but when it does it’s up to the league to find and snuff out those issues to preserve the league’s integrity. If it doesn’t, they run the risk of basically not really having the system they set out to install in the first place and which cost fans a year of missing hockey to endure to get it. So, you either want integrity and a league that takes itself seriously or you don’t.

[browntrout]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Players get injured every single season. They plan for it, and other teams don’t. It’s not as though they are playing by another set of rules. Anyone can do what they’re doing, they’re just smarter and more ruthless about winning.

You’re implicitly admitting that durability is an overrated skill with this CBA, which they’ve figured out.

What is morally, and ethically wrong are players lying to doctors , saying they can't play ,but all of a sudden day 1 of the playoffs rolls up and they can magically play pain free or whatever else lame reason they can come up.

It's flat out cheating and I will enjoy the day when team 'x' finally gets heavily fined and penalized for getting exposed, anyone thinking no team would go this far is delusional.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

If you already have a strong roster it absolutely is. Who cares where you get into the playoffs position wise if you can add $20M worth of extra good players for your playoff run?

But you cant add players....unless your good ones (higher paid anyhow) are injured. That's not a good thing for any team.

Vegas would way rather have Stone and Martinez and Carrierre playing right now than an injured Hertl that wont be available for a few weeks.

They are not exactly a lock for the playoffs yet. 7 out of their last 20 available points.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

If you already have a strong roster it absolutely is. Who cares where you get into the playoffs position wise if you can add $20M worth of extra good players for your playoff run?

And Las Vegas figured out that the rest of the league overrates durable players. So now we cry because we didn’t do it first.

If they change the rules to replicate the regular season, they won’t do it anymore.

[FlamesAddiction]

I can't see players liking it. Imagine being traded to a team and once players are healthy for the playoffs, you have to watch from the stands. If it was a UFA year, it could have huge implications on their next contract.

[Goriders]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

The tax thing has been pretty thoroughly debunked by Allan Walsh. A good accountant and you end up with more take home in every Canadian city over the California teams as an example. It has little to do with money.



Players taking discounts for cities like Vegas or New York is very likely more to do with weather, laser focus from the media/fans, and being in a desired market.

How could it be debunked?

In canada they are probably paying close to half their salary to the government. In Florida, Washington, Nevada and Texas there’s no state tax.

How could they possibly be compared apples to apples.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by transplant99

But you cant add players....unless your good ones (higher paid anyhow) are injured. That's not a good thing for any team.

Vegas would way rather have Stone and Martinez and Carrierre playing right now than an injured Hertl that wont be available for a few weeks.

They are not exactly a lock for the playoffs yet. 7 out of their last 20 points.

Would Vegas rather have Stone , Martinez, and Carrier right now over Mantha and Hanifin? Sure. Would Vegas rather take the extremely small risk of missing the playoffs and have Mantha and Hanifin right now and then add those guys plus Hertl for the playoffs? 100%! Zero doubt about that. Vegas is not going to miss the playoffs and they know it.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Blaster86

The tax thing has been pretty thoroughly debunked by Allan Walsh. A good accountant and you end up with more take home in every Canadian city over the California teams as an example. It has little to do with money.



Players taking discounts for cities like Vegas or New York is very likely more to do with weather, laser focus from the media/fans, and being in a desired market.

Calgary and Edmonton (47.70%) in particular are lower than several of the American teams even without the fancy accounting. It's true that Toronto and Montreal are among the highest though.

Anaheim Ducks 52.2%
Los Angeles Kings 52.2%
Montreal Canadiens 53.06%
New Jersey Devils 47.95%
New York Islanders 47.73%
New York Rangers 51.98%
Ottawa Senators 53.17%
San Jose Sharks 52.20%
Toronto Maple Leafs 53.17%
Washington Capitals 47.87%
Winnipeg Jets 50.15%

All of these teams have higher tax rates than Calgary and Edmonton at 47.70%

Several of those teams are the most sought after for free agents.

And there isn't really a huge difference. However, Tampa, Nashville, Dallas, Florida, and Vegas are quite a bit lower at 39.14%

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

To your second para that’s probably true and I agree.

To the first, oh I’m not mad at Vegas. I just think they are intentionally circumventing the spirit and intent of the salary cap. That’s fine, and quite frankly that stuff will always happen by all teams, but when it does it’s up to the league to find and snuff out those issues to preserve the league’s integrity. If it doesn’t, they run the risk of basically not really having the system they set out to install in the first place and which cost fans a year of missing hockey to endure to get it. So, you either want integrity and a league that takes itself seriously or you don’t.

I interpret it differently. They read the rules and where some teams shy away from high skilled injury prone players, they love them. Chances are at least one of them will get injured, then they can grab a Hanifin or Hertl (in this case, both!) and have a good chance to win. That’s how I’d play if I was a GM.

Of course it influences the integrity of the league which I think is why this thread is here. They’ll snuff this out eventually, but until then, this is a great way to win in the playoffs.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by butterfly

And Las Vegas figured out that the rest of the league overrates durable players. So now we cry because we didn’t do it first.

If they change the rules to replicate the regular season, they won’t do it anymore.

Except it isn't fair to be able to ice such a stacked roster come the playoffs. Let's say next year Draisaitl signs an extension in Edmonton. Him and McDavid get nagging injuries coming up to the trade deadline and Edmonton is in a playoff spot. Now let's say for theory sake Toronto gets hit bad with injuries or their goaltending sucks and they look like they will miss and so does TB. So Edmonton adds Mitch Marner and Victor Hedman at the deadline. Come game 1 both Draisaitl and McDavid come back, are you still happy?

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Except it isn't fair to be able to ice such a stacked roster come the playoffs. Let's say next year Draisaitl signs an extension in Edmonton. Him and McDavid get nagging injuries coming up to the trade deadline and Edmonton is in a playoff spot. Now let's say for theory sake Toronto gets hit bad with injuries or their goaltending sucks and they look like they will miss and so does TB. So Edmonton adds Mitch Marner and Victor Hedman at the deadline. Come game 1 both Draisaitl and McDavid come back, are you still happy?

I wouldn’t be happy in the slightest, but it’s within the rules. How is that cheating?

It’s fair to do whatever you want within the rules.

[Roof-Daddy]

Nothing to see here folks

The "injuries" are all legit, nobody is abusing LTIR or timing their returns to action to be right in time for playoffs

lmao

[butterfly]

League hates creativity within the rules, so this will die out pretty soon, I’d predict. It doesn’t result in any obvious marginal revenue.

They hated when Lemaire figured out how to win with unskilled players and got very upset about it to the point where they changed the rules.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by butterfly

I wouldn’t be happy in the slightest, but it’s within the rules. How is that cheating?

It’s fair to do whatever you want within the rules.

And we are discussing why the rules need to be changed but you keep going back to saying you think it is perfectly fine for teams to have a huge advantage over other teams just because of injuries. Personally I think that stance is ridiculous.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Nothing to see here folks

The "injuries" are all legit, nobody is abusing LTIR or timing their returns to action to be right in time for playoffs

lmao

Stone has a ruptured spleen, not really a “lmao” issue.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Stone has a ruptured spleen, not really a “lmao” issue.

I'm not lmao'ing at anyone who has a legit injury

I'm laughing at anyone who argues these teams aren't cheating their asses off

Nice attempt to build a strawman though lol

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

And we are discussing why the rules need to be changed but you keep going back to saying you think it is perfectly fine for teams to have a huge advantage over other teams just because of injuries. Personally I think that stance is ridiculous.

That’s fair for you to think that. I’m pretty ambivalent; it would just lead to me changing how much I value players based on their tendency to sustain injuries.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by butterfly

Stone has a ruptured spleen, not really a “lmao” issue.

Recovery is 3-12 weeks, that is a pretty convient time table. He got injured Feb 20th, if he could play before the playoffs start do you think that is happening or will they leave him in LTIR until game 1?. Hertl is projected to be ready around March 25th? Does he have a setback or do they stuff someone else on LTIR? Martinez is supposed to be back within a week. Vegas has under $1M in cap space. Let's see how they do it.

[butterfly]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

I'm not lmao'ing at anyone who has a legit injury

I'm laughing at anyone who argues these teams aren't cheating their asses off

Nice attempt to build a strawman though lol

So, Stone has a legitimate injury but Las Vegas is cheating. Got it, I think.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by butterfly

So, Stone has a legitimate injury but Las Vegas is cheating. Got it, I think.

Nobody is arguing that. Do you think they will activate him before game 1 if he can play?